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Old 06-27-2014, 07:05 PM
Thegrip6589 Thegrip6589 is offline
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Question Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Hey everyone and thanks for taking the time to check out my thread. I have read many threads on this forum and the more I read the more confused I get when it comes down to upgrading my current ranger sub setup. My goal with any and all upgrades to this portion of my system is to drastically increase the amount of bass my system outputs while keeping the accuracy of my sub to a higher quality standard. Having an extreme amount of pressure inside of my vehicle is something I have always wanted but could never achieve and would like to know what if anything I am doing wrong.

Currently my sub is performing very poorly and sounds terrible by itself after I had taken some advice from a local car audio shop. They had advised me to remove 2 kicker 12" subs that I had hooked up separately (separate amp, box, and wire runs) in addition to what my current setup is below. They had said having different brand/types of subs installed at the same time caused a cancelation of sound from both brands and would make the final sound worse than if I was running one specific brand. I am not an expert in car audio by any means but the sound coming from my current setup is not anywhere near what I feel it should be. When I turn my stereo up to 3/4 volume you are unable to hear the bass from the outside of the vehicle with the doors shut.

There is no eq settings applied as of now that would cut off certain frequencies or lower the overall sub output so I am at a loss of what to do. Before I start dumping more money into it than I already have invested I would like to see what others think.

Current Setup (relevant to the sub portion only, manual links below)

Headunit: JVC KD-R800
http://support.jvc.com/consumer/prod...lId=MODL028468

Subwoofer: Alpine Type X 12" Dual Voice Coil (SWX-1243D)
Sub Wired to 2 ohm load with 10 or 12 gauge speaker wire
http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/swx-1243d

Box: Premade Sealed Enclosure
15 3/4" Height X 13" Wide X 14 to 17" Deep (top to bottom)
(Was recommended by the same audio shop I purchased the sub at and received the sound cancelation advice from)

Amplifier: Mmats D300HC (Class D Amp)
http://www.mmatsproaudio.com/pdfs/Ea...2%20Manual.pdf

Capacitor: Power Acoustik PCX-5F (5 Farad Digital Capacitor)
http://poweracoustik.com/store/pcx-5f.html

Amp and Capacitor Wires are True 4 gauge oxygen free copper with gold plated ring terminal connectors

Optima Red Top Series Battery
(Part # 75/25-925) CA=910 CCA=720 RC=90

Upgraded Alternator from Stock to a 130 Amp


I want to be as thorough as possible without overloading everyone with unnecessary info so I am going to post as-is for now. If there is anything I can add to help better anyone's advice please ask. I will do whatever it takes to get the best advice possible.

Thanks again to anyone that reads through this post and helps contribute their expertise. I look forward to reading what others think would help out.
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1999 Ford Ranger XLT Ext Cab 4WD
130 Amp Alt | Dual Isolated Battery Setup | Optima Red Top [Primary] | XS Power D3400 [Secondary] | All Wire 1/0 Gauge KnuKonceptz Kolossus Flex OFC
Audio Processors: Pioneer DEH-X9500BHS H/U | AudioControl Epicenter
Front Doors: 6.5" Alpine SWR-60C (Comps) | Rear Doors: 6x8" Pioneer A Series 3-Way Coaxial
Subs: (2) 12" Alpine Type-Rs (SWR-12D4) [5th Gen] Amps: Alpine MRX-M240 & Orion Cobalt 300.2
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  #2  
Old 06-27-2014, 07:37 PM
Clinton64xl Clinton64xl is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

You need to talk to GLH on here.. When it comes to sound systems this guy knows his stuff.. He will put you in the right direction you need to go with your system..
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Last edited by Clinton64xl; 06-27-2014 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 06-27-2014, 07:38 PM
buggman buggman is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Did the shop also try to sell you some of their overpriced equipment?

Using different brands of equipment should have no effect so long as everything is set up properly, like amp gains, etc.

With that said, it is a good idea to use the same size/brand/type of subs when using multiple subs in the same enclosure/running from the same amp.
Since different subs will have different characteristics even with "identical" specs they can vary widely.

You could run 10 different brands of subs powered from 10 different amps & as long as they're all setup properly it could sound amazing. You could run 2 different brand subs from the same amp, have incorrect gain settings & incorrect box size & it will sound terrible.

I think that type x alpine sub is some of their high end stuff & so long as it's in the proper sized box & has the proper crossover point & has adequate power it should beat the paint off your truck.
Box size ie: incorrect internal volume can make a $1000 sub sound like an old lady farting in a cardboard box, and inversely a properly sized box can make a $50 sub sound like a $500 sub.

Looks like the type x will handle 500-1000w RMS & the amp should be a pretty good match.

If the box is the proper size (sorry I didn't read all the specs) the first thing I'd do is to set the amp gains using the multi meter method, a quick google search will bring up several results & videos. It's pretty simple & once you have the amp's output matched to your sub, you should should much better.

When setting the amp gains, turn the head unit up to 3/4 volume (with all the speakers disconnected) or until you hear distortion. Back the volume down a hair & start setting the amp gains.

Once the gains are set properly you can add any EQ settings or loudness from the headunit or amp to tailor the sound.

Normally the problem would be that you're gains aren't set properly or you're starving the amp for power, but it sounds like you have plenty of power to the amp (the cap really won't make a big difference but most car audio shops love to up-sell them) so I'd look at the amp gains & the box size before I'd spend any money... it could be as simple as setting the gains (Free) or getting a properly sized box for the sub (not free but cheaper than starting over)
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  #4  
Old 06-27-2014, 08:32 PM
Markous Markous is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

You want to put that Type X in a custom and well built (not prefabricated) ported box to see maximum output.

That would be step 1 as i see it and take things from there.



Whipped this up quickly using Torres,



Built with 1" mdf instead of 3/4" and 50% more port area than spec with the sub facing upwards and port facing forward this would bump pretty good.
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Last edited by Markous; 06-27-2014 at 08:43 PM. Reason: added box design
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  #5  
Old 06-27-2014, 11:07 PM
6thumping15's 6thumping15's is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markous View Post
You want to put that Type X in a custom and well built (not prefabricated) ported box to see maximum output. That would be step 1 as i see it and take things from there. Whipped this up quickly using Torres, Built with 1" mdf instead of 3/4" and 50% more port area than spec with the sub facing upwards and port facing forward this would bump pretty good.
I agree. Build a STRONG ported cabinet. Personally, I would do port up sub up. I've had better luck with that orientation in truck enclosures. But over all a proper ported enclosure will GREATLY improve your bass stage.
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  #6  
Old 06-27-2014, 11:12 PM
GLH GLH is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

I don't see how I should add more than Buggman and Markous have.

The sub is rated to handle 1000 watts RMS. It is in a sealed box. The amp is rated to do 1400 watts RMS @ 2 ohms.

The amp gain should be set with a DMM or by ear with a 50 hz test tone. Any bass boost on amp and headunit shoudl be 0. Loudness off. Volume on headunit should be at or slightly above 3/4ths. Headunit sub level should be maxxed out. If using ohm's law and a DMM, use 1000 for the wattage, so look for 44.7 Volts AC at the amp output terminals. Alpine recommends a sealed box be 1.0 cu. ft. net and a ported box be 1.8 cu. ft. net with a slot port of 12' x 1' x 24'.
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  #7  
Old 06-28-2014, 08:45 AM
Thegrip6589 Thegrip6589 is offline
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Question Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Wow you guys are awesome, I wasn't expecting this much insight overnight. Thank you!

I'm not the best with the quote responses and I don't want to butcher it so Im just going to go through the list here on what I have done out of that replies.

Buggman you are spot on about the local shop. I had actually tried buying an amp install kit from them recently hoping to upgrade the kickers I removed. What was supposed to be a high quality 4 gauge kit turned out to be low quality 8 gauge wire with oversized insulation and no copper whatsoever (assuming aluminum). So I returned that the other day and will not be giving them anymore of my business. Im also really annoyed that I had spent a whole evening after work last week trying to upgrade my system but ended up just removing extra subs, wires, and an amp that could have just stayed put. As for the capacitor I kind of felt like that was the case shortly after installing it. It was on sale online when I picked it up and comes in handy at least for monitoring my voltage levels without having to get out the multimeter.
(haha by the way your analogy for proper box sizes was awesome)

As for fine tuning my amp and headunit I am going to go ahead and redo that again after work today. In the past I have always used the ear method with a 40 hz test tone with the rest of my speakers (components and tweeters) still plugged in. I had one of my coworkers loan me their DMM for the weekend so I will be tuning it that way this time around with the 50hz tone.

I had a feeling that the box was a one of the things that I needed to change but had no idea that its role was that big when it came down to making the sub louder overall. I have the better part of this weekend free so I am going to get started in researching how to build a custom box. Markous thank you for posting the box design I will be looking into that when I have some time after work to see if its something I could take up project wise or what it would cost to have it custom built. Would changing the port from the front of the box to the top change the sound at all? Currently both of my rear folding seats and spare tire jack are all removed so I have a decent amount of room that I can work with and want to keep the option to move stuff around if needed.

After I get my amps retuned and the type x put in the proper box any further upgrades before just outright buying more subs? Was looking at my headunit and noticed the pre out voltage is kinda low compared to most headunits out there nowadays (2.5v) and the freq response is 40 hz thru 20,000 hz. Are sound processors and line drivers a good investment? Let me know what you guys would do if it was your system

Thanks again everyone. You guys are a huge help.
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1999 Ford Ranger XLT Ext Cab 4WD
130 Amp Alt | Dual Isolated Battery Setup | Optima Red Top [Primary] | XS Power D3400 [Secondary] | All Wire 1/0 Gauge KnuKonceptz Kolossus Flex OFC
Audio Processors: Pioneer DEH-X9500BHS H/U | AudioControl Epicenter
Front Doors: 6.5" Alpine SWR-60C (Comps) | Rear Doors: 6x8" Pioneer A Series 3-Way Coaxial
Subs: (2) 12" Alpine Type-Rs (SWR-12D4) [5th Gen] Amps: Alpine MRX-M240 & Orion Cobalt 300.2
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  #8  
Old 06-28-2014, 11:50 AM
Markous Markous is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Getting one built can be expensive and you will never know the pride in workmanship the builder had, it is more time consuming but more satisfying to know you built the box and took pride in building it piece by piece.

Port & Sub up doesn't seem to change much, it gives you another 1.5" of port area with the same external dimensions as i posted above and according to torres you can shortern the port length an inch to still be tuned in the 35hz range.

If you use this design just remember that the length of the port will be 23.5" measured from the centerline of the port & the physical length of 21" is measured along the outside of the inner port wall.

example of physical length,

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Last edited by Markous; 06-28-2014 at 11:53 AM.
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  #9  
Old 06-28-2014, 02:48 PM
Thegrip6589 Thegrip6589 is offline
1999 Ranger 3.0L XLT EXT
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Exclamation Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Ok just an update on results from regaining my amp with the DMM. Following the advice of buggman and GLH I set my headunit to a flat eq, full sub level, loudness off (never had this turned on), and disconnected all my speakers except the subs. I generated 3 sine wave tones 40hz,50hz, and 60hz with audacity and rendered them to a 320kbps mp3 and set the gains. My headunits max volume is 50 so I used volume levels 36 and 37 to test the voltage from the speaker terminals on my amp.

Heres my results

After doing my first test with 40hz with my headunit set to 36 the voltage was jumping around a lot and sending a ton of clipped signals. Fortunately for me I had a found a nice set of gold plated rca cables a couple nights ago and making the swap from my old ones actually cleaned the signal up quite a bit and leveled the voltage jumps a decent bit

at volume level 36
40hz 38-39volts
50hz 36-38 volts
60hz 35-38

at volume level 37 (clipping was significant without any additional gains)
40hz 40-43 volts
(40hz clipped so bad it sent my amp into overload protection mode as soon as it hit over 41 volts)
50hz 38-40 (audible clipping but no overload protection)
60hz 36-40 (voltage jumped around a whole lot no clipping)

Final thoughts
I do have to admit changing the rcas and setting the gain with the dmm helped out a little but overall its not a big difference. Definitely time to look into building the box and go that route. I am curious as to why the sub starting clipping around 40 volts though and wouldn't get to 44 before sending the amp into overload mode. Maybe this is a resistance thing? I remember in the past checking the ohms from my sub always resulted in lower numbers than advertised (each voice coil was about 3.8 instead of 4) Being that I wired it to 2 ohms it should be less (1.8ish) will have to put that on the meter as well.

Markous thank you for the quick follow up there and advice. I agree completely about the pride in workmanship and will be looking into doing the build myself. I am going to start looking into how to do the builds and get myself prepared this weekend and pick up the materials probably this upcoming Monday or Tuesday (whichever day paychecks come in haha)

Thanks for the continued help everyone. If there's anything else anyone thinks I should try out while I have the DMM this weekend let me know.
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1999 Ford Ranger XLT Ext Cab 4WD
130 Amp Alt | Dual Isolated Battery Setup | Optima Red Top [Primary] | XS Power D3400 [Secondary] | All Wire 1/0 Gauge KnuKonceptz Kolossus Flex OFC
Audio Processors: Pioneer DEH-X9500BHS H/U | AudioControl Epicenter
Front Doors: 6.5" Alpine SWR-60C (Comps) | Rear Doors: 6x8" Pioneer A Series 3-Way Coaxial
Subs: (2) 12" Alpine Type-Rs (SWR-12D4) [5th Gen] Amps: Alpine MRX-M240 & Orion Cobalt 300.2
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  #10  
Old 06-28-2014, 04:41 PM
GLH GLH is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Check the impedance of the sub voice coils or measure it at the box terminal. BTW, what is the fuse size on the amp ?
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  #11  
Old 06-28-2014, 05:49 PM
Thegrip6589 Thegrip6589 is offline
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Talking Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Have to make this update quick as I have to head out shortly, but I went down and put the dmm to the back of my boxes terminals to check the ohms and it was staying at around 2 and then going nuts jumping up a couple numbers and going down below 1 ohm and steadying out again. So I pulled the sub from the box thinking I blew it up and checked both coils and both are at a steady 4.1 ohm with no fluctuation whatsoever. Wired it for 2ohms again and checked the wire itself and that's reading at 2.2 ohm steady. Im glad you asked me to get the exact numbers or I probably wouldn't have found this problem anytime soon. I will update when I get everything hooked back up and retuned. Thank you!

Btw my amp doesn't have an external fuse that you can pull its all internal. Tried to find it online and everyone says that its a single 300amp fuse. Other than that my 4 gauge wire run to the amp has a 150amp anl fuse under the hood by the battery terminal.
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1999 Ford Ranger XLT Ext Cab 4WD
130 Amp Alt | Dual Isolated Battery Setup | Optima Red Top [Primary] | XS Power D3400 [Secondary] | All Wire 1/0 Gauge KnuKonceptz Kolossus Flex OFC
Audio Processors: Pioneer DEH-X9500BHS H/U | AudioControl Epicenter
Front Doors: 6.5" Alpine SWR-60C (Comps) | Rear Doors: 6x8" Pioneer A Series 3-Way Coaxial
Subs: (2) 12" Alpine Type-Rs (SWR-12D4) [5th Gen] Amps: Alpine MRX-M240 & Orion Cobalt 300.2
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  #12  
Old 06-28-2014, 06:30 PM
buggman buggman is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Can't believe I posted before GLH did HA!

Sounds like you're on the way to getting it set up.

The amp should have an externally mounted fuse(s) unless it's one that requires a separate external fuse, in which case it should indicate in the manual or box as to what amp fuse to use. I've seen several rockford fosgate amps with no fuse on board.

You'll want a fuse between the amp & battery, not including the fuse at the battery. A 300a fuse sounds enormous for a 1000w amp... more like a 100a +/- depending on the efficiency of the amp.

Sounds like you may have had a loose connection to the sub giving the bouncing readings too.

Lots of shops will do the McDonalds "do you want fries with that?" upselling. They don't have to sell everyone stuff they don't probably need, but every time they do it's more free money in their pocket. With so many new people getting into car audio, the have a nearly unlimited market to pick from.
Some shops will give you honest info & suggestions too, but they can be few & far between.
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  #13  
Old 06-28-2014, 10:56 PM
GLH GLH is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

I got nuttin to add except maybe, I'm slow tonight.
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  #14  
Old 06-29-2014, 08:34 PM
Whiston Whiston is offline
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Your measured impedance will change if the coil moves in the gap at all. This could be from being bumped, leaning on the cone, or moving it at all.

There's nothing wrong with your sub or equipment. It isn't a small setting you're looking for either.

You'll want to build a new box and tune it to your liking. 1.8 cubes is a little small for that sub, if you want pressure shoot for closer to 2.5. Port and sub up is loudest.
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  #15  
Old 06-29-2014, 11:24 PM
GLH GLH is offline
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Default Re: Alpine Type X Sub install underperforming seeking advice for mods or upgrades

Alpine recommends a sealed box be 1.0 cu. ft. net and a ported box be 1.8 cu. ft. net with a slot port of 12" x 1" x 24".
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