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  #1  
Old 08-28-2017, 07:00 PM
keith89 keith89 is offline
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Default no front brakes

I'm working on reviving a 2004 Ranger XL rwd. When I picked it up, only the rear left brake was working. I replaced front calipers, pads, rotors, and all the rear hardware and wheel cylinders. I bled the master cylinder and all 4 corners until clear fluid came out(master cylinder never ran dry). Now it is braking from both rears but the fronts don't engage unless i press much harder. The first 1/4 of the brake pedal is soft but they will slow. With the front in the air and car off, i can stop the front wheels from spinning with no problem.

Does this sound like a master cylinder or booster issue? The fronts don't seem to engage unless i brake very hard and the rotors still have the cross hatch pattern.
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  #2  
Old 08-29-2017, 04:16 AM
EaOutlaw1969 EaOutlaw1969 is offline
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Default Re: no front brakes

Did you replace the rear shoes and drums?

Are the rear shoes adjusted properly?

Does the parking brake hold the truck with about a half of pedal travel on the parking brake?

You may want to double check the install of the front brake pads, If the pad slides are binding it may cause the pads to pull back slightly on the caliper.

If the fluid was very old and nasty you may have to replace the master cylinder.

Yet you would think if flow from the master cylinder was blocked off you would not get good fluid flow while bleeding the brakes.

Were you getting a good amount of fluid to the front while bleeding?

There are a few other things that could be the source of your problem however lets see what you have to say before we get in too deep.
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  #3  
Old 08-29-2017, 12:28 PM
keith89 keith89 is offline
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Default Re: no front brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by EaOutlaw1969 View Post
Did you replace the rear shoes and drums?

Are the rear shoes adjusted properly?

Does the parking brake hold the truck with about a half of pedal travel on the parking brake?

You may want to double check the install of the front brake pads, If the pad slides are binding it may cause the pads to pull back slightly on the caliper.

If the fluid was very old and nasty you may have to replace the master cylinder.

Yet you would think if flow from the master cylinder was blocked off you would not get good fluid flow while bleeding the brakes.

Were you getting a good amount of fluid to the front while bleeding?

There are a few other things that could be the source of your problem however lets see what you have to say before we get in too deep.
Rear is fine. I cleaned the backing plates, replaced all the hardware and adjusted the shoes with the correct aduster on each side.

Front calipers are new and the pins are greased and move freely. I do get good fluid flow when bleeding the brakes. I will be replacing the front lines anyway since they are the originals. One interesting thing i noticed while driving in the rain today is the abs will kick in when i'm almost at a stop and on the brakes. It does not happen during normal braking. Just the last foot or so of braking to a stop. Is it possible my front abs sensors are shot and causing the problem?
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  #4  
Old 08-31-2017, 02:26 AM
EaOutlaw1969 EaOutlaw1969 is offline
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Default Re: no front brakes

You say your rear brake shoes and drums are fine, Great what is fine?

Going by a measurement from the lowest point of the brake lining on the worst worn brake shoe, how much lining is left before metal to metal will happen?

2/32nds------8 3/32nds ?

How much of a rust lip has formed on the rear drum?

Has the drum ever been machined thinner than factory specs found on the drum?

With the truck jacked up on stands and in neutral with the wheels on, how many times can you rotate each rear tire with one good spin of each tire?

Do you have any warning lights on the dash lit up?

After cleaning the backing plate did you lubricate the friction points on the backing plate the shoes ride on?

Does the parking brake hold properly?

It does not sound like your brake system is working properly so I would not expect the ABS to function as expected either.

Unless you have a Brake light or ABS light on I would continue working towards getting the basics of your brakes working properly.

If you suspect the master cylinder you could remove each line from the master cylinder and block off each port with a pipe plug.

You should be able to push on the brake pedal and have a hard full pedal. if the pedal is still soft for the first 1/4 part of the pedal travel I would suspect the master cylinder is bypassing and needs to be replaced.

Since you are planning on replacing the rubber flex hoses I would replace all three of them, if you wanted to test for master cylinder bypass or air first you could simply clamp off all three hoses with vise grips to see if you get a rock hard pedal with no travel.

If you do get a hard pedal with the lines clamped off disconnect each vise grip one by one testing the pedal after disconnecting each vise grip. if the pedal drops with one or more of the vise grips removed you know the master cylinder is good and you have also pin pointed a problem that needs to be corrected before anything else is done.

When I was asking about the front calipers I specifically mentioned the pad slides not the caliper slides.

If you want realistic help from people on line you have to do a much better job of addressing the questions we have.

Without known accurate answers from you providing a timely and effective repair solution will be difficult to impossible.

It would be helpful to have clear pictures of your front and rear brake system.

Make sure the pictures are clear enough to see the lining of the shoes and installation of the hardware.
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2017, 08:51 AM
keith89 keith89 is offline
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Default Re: no front brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by EaOutlaw1969 View Post
You say your rear brake shoes and drums are fine, Great what is fine?

Going by a measurement from the lowest point of the brake lining on the worst worn brake shoe, how much lining is left before metal to metal will happen?

2/32nds------8 3/32nds ?

How much of a rust lip has formed on the rear drum?

Has the drum ever been machined thinner than factory specs found on the drum?

With the truck jacked up on stands and in neutral with the wheels on, how many times can you rotate each rear tire with one good spin of each tire?

Do you have any warning lights on the dash lit up?

After cleaning the backing plate did you lubricate the friction points on the backing plate the shoes ride on?

Does the parking brake hold properly?

It does not sound like your brake system is working properly so I would not expect the ABS to function as expected either.

Unless you have a Brake light or ABS light on I would continue working towards getting the basics of your brakes working properly.

If you suspect the master cylinder you could remove each line from the master cylinder and block off each port with a pipe plug.

You should be able to push on the brake pedal and have a hard full pedal. if the pedal is still soft for the first 1/4 part of the pedal travel I would suspect the master cylinder is bypassing and needs to be replaced.

Since you are planning on replacing the rubber flex hoses I would replace all three of them, if you wanted to test for master cylinder bypass or air first you could simply clamp off all three hoses with vise grips to see if you get a rock hard pedal with no travel.

If you do get a hard pedal with the lines clamped off disconnect each vise grip one by one testing the pedal after disconnecting each vise grip. if the pedal drops with one or more of the vise grips removed you know the master cylinder is good and you have also pin pointed a problem that needs to be corrected before anything else is done.

When I was asking about the front calipers I specifically mentioned the pad slides not the caliper slides.

If you want realistic help from people on line you have to do a much better job of addressing the questions we have.

Without known accurate answers from you providing a timely and effective repair solution will be difficult to impossible.

It would be helpful to have clear pictures of your front and rear brake system.

Make sure the pictures are clear enough to see the lining of the shoes and installation of the hardware.
Fine as in all new. the brakes were in bad shape when i got it. the rear shoes had no pads left so i replaced the drums, shoes, springs adjuster hardware, wheel cylinders and I even did the axle bearings since I was flushing the diff at the same time. Yes, I lubed the backing plate where there were the shoes ride. The parking brake holds properly on an incline. The rear brakes do not drag but work properly when applying the brakes. they also release properly without dragging

The front right caliper slider pin was hanging so i replaced both front calipers anyway. the new pins slide freely and the new pads slide freely in the caliper bracket with new spring retainers.

There are no warning lights. The ABS light works when i key on and turns off with the rest of the dash lights. I'm thinking it is the master cylinder bypassing fluid and the abs kicking when almost stopped is a separate issue of cleaning the abs wheel speed sensors. I forgot to clean them when i replaced the front rotors. I noticed with the front wheels off the ground and a friend turning them, i can stop them with the brakes but it takes a fairly long press to do so. Also, the pedal is not hard right away. it does take a bit to get pressure. In the initial soft part of the pedal, the rear brakes kick in but the fronts are very weak. Is the front brake port closer to the firewall on the master cylinder?
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2017, 02:39 AM
EaOutlaw1969 EaOutlaw1969 is offline
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Default Re: no front brakes

To test for a bypassing master cylinder all you need to do is as follows. ( from Alldata DIY )

Bypass Condition Test
Disconnect the brake lines at the brake master cylinder.
Plug the outlet ports of the brake master cylinder.
Apply the brakes. If brake pedal height cannot be maintained, the brake master cylinder has an internal leak and must be rebuilt or replaced.


Another function to test for is Compensator Port Check

The purpose of the compensator ports in the brake master cylinder is to supply any additional brake fluid required by the system due to brake pad wear and to allow brake fluid returning from the brake lines to the brake master cylinder to enter the brake master cylinder reservoir.
The returning brake fluid will cause a slight turbulence in the brake master cylinder reservoir. Turbulence seen in the brake master cylinder reservoir upon release of the brake pedal is normal and shows that the compensating ports are not plugged.

Generally speaking the front part ( closest to the front of the truck ) of the master cylinder is for the front brakes.

If your fluid in your master cylinder was neglected before this brake work you may have stirred much of this garbage up during bleeding.

If this was my truck I would replace the master cylinder and three rubber flex hoses. then flush at least a large full bottle of brake fluid through the system.


https://www.amazon.com/Ford-E3TZ-2B2...rds=E3TZ2B257A
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  #7  
Old 09-07-2017, 09:02 AM
keith89 keith89 is offline
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Default Re: no front brakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by EaOutlaw1969 View Post
To test for a bypassing master cylinder all you need to do is as follows. ( from Alldata DIY )

Bypass Condition Test
Disconnect the brake lines at the brake master cylinder.
Plug the outlet ports of the brake master cylinder.
Apply the brakes. If brake pedal height cannot be maintained, the brake master cylinder has an internal leak and must be rebuilt or replaced.


Another function to test for is Compensator Port Check

The purpose of the compensator ports in the brake master cylinder is to supply any additional brake fluid required by the system due to brake pad wear and to allow brake fluid returning from the brake lines to the brake master cylinder to enter the brake master cylinder reservoir.
The returning brake fluid will cause a slight turbulence in the brake master cylinder reservoir. Turbulence seen in the brake master cylinder reservoir upon release of the brake pedal is normal and shows that the compensating ports are not plugged.

Generally speaking the front part ( closest to the front of the truck ) of the master cylinder is for the front brakes.

If your fluid in your master cylinder was neglected before this brake work you may have stirred much of this garbage up during bleeding.

If this was my truck I would replace the master cylinder and three rubber flex hoses. then flush at least a large full bottle of brake fluid through the system.


https://www.amazon.com/Ford-E3TZ-2B2...rds=E3TZ2B257A
A new master cylinder and cleaning the abs sensors has cleared up both my problems. The master cylinder definitely had an internal leak.
Thanks for the input. I replaced the rubber flex hoses anyway as well.
Before my initial bleed, i sucked out as much of the old brake fluid as I could, but it was already a lost cause.
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  #8  
Old 09-07-2017, 01:03 PM
EaOutlaw1969 EaOutlaw1969 is offline
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Default Re: no front brakes

Thanks for getting back to us and letting us know the problem is fixed.
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