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  #16  
Old 07-24-2011, 12:08 PM
S13minus1 S13minus1 is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

um my truck has the gas light on like, 40% of the time haha im not expecting anything bad to happen
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awe come on alex be a man!
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  #17  
Old 07-24-2011, 12:15 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

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Originally Posted by southbama man View Post
I thought this was common sense?
It shouldn't be. Cause it's BS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtsandman View Post
The article recommends keeping at least a quarter tank.

Most fuel pumps are cooled by the fuel. How much is due to it being submerged and how much is due to fuel circulating through the pump, I can't say. But I do know that the more fuel that is in the tank the better the "heat sink" is.
If that was the case, then why would we be able to draw the tank below that. You're bascially agreeing that every motor vehicle ever ever made with an in-tank pump is just waiting to fail due to improper use.

The pumps are designed to operate unsubmerged. If you want to believe they aren't and that it is a design flaw in a billion different vehicles, I guess that's fine too. But you're wasting your effort and misinforming people in doing so. This entire article is a joke, it is based on rumor and old wives tales.

As I'm sure you're painfully aware, aircraft parts are nothing like automotive parts (besides costing 5x as much).
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  #18  
Old 07-24-2011, 12:25 PM
sgtsandman sgtsandman is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

It's the risk you take. Like I said, there are plenty of people out there who do it.

Up until the mid '90's we used JP-4 which was essentially gasoline. Then we switched to JP-8 which is kerosene based.

Like some mentioned before also, there is a "reserve" of about 3 gallons when the light comes on. So you really aren't that empty yet. I'm guessing there would be about an inch of fuel left in the tank at three gallons. And I admit, I don't know how much cooling is done by the fuel in the pump versus the fuel around the pump...

In any case, it's AAA's article, not mine! :-P

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireRanger View Post
As I'm sure you're painfully aware, aircraft parts are nothing like automotive parts (besides costing 5x as much).
A fuel pump is a fuel pump, just the volume and size are different. It still picks up fuel from the bottom through a filter or screen and pumps it up into the fuel line. It is still cooled by fuel, gasoline, diesel, or kerosene. It is still electrically driven. Show me where the difference is.

Believe what you will. AAA, which has in the automotive business for years and has experts, apparently doesn't know what they are talking about anymore than I do.
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  #19  
Old 07-24-2011, 12:39 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtsandman View Post
A fuel pump is a fuel pump, just the volume and size are different. It still picks up fuel from the bottom through a filter or screen and pumps it up into the fuel line. It is still cooled by fuel, gasoline, diesel, or kerosene. It is still electrically driven. Show me where the difference is.
Well I guess I'm glad you haven't worked on aircraft I've flown or been a passenger in. Accomplishing the same function does not constitute identical design. You know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtsandman View Post
Believe what you will. AAA, which has in the automotive business for years and has experts, apparently doesn't know what they are talking about anymore than I do.
Well apparently all their years doesn't stop their marketing and PR departments from publishing complete horseshit on the internet. Regardless of our differing opinion on cooling, their incorrect BS about "bottom of the tank junk" is more than enough to completely discount anything else they babble about. So ya basically they don't know what they're talking about I guess.
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  #20  
Old 07-24-2011, 01:34 PM
north44 north44 is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

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Originally Posted by FireRanger View Post
Umm, neither of those are lessons on why you should keep your tank full. The first one is a lesson on reading maps and knowing where you're going. And the second one is a lesson on not letting it get down to fumes to begin with.

FYI, at idle not moving, you burn between 1/3 to 1/2 gallon per hour (in a 4.0). Probably even less in the smaller engines. So if you run out gas from idling for an hour or two, you were an idiot and already down to nothing in the first place.
Not disputing that . . .

Just a couple of anecdotes about why I now try to fill at about 1/2 tank - I figure I'll use up the gas eventually, and I'd rather fill up whenever possible at my discretion rather than taking any unneccessary chance of running dry . . .

And I have heard that more gas in the tank = better cooling for the pump, but can't speak for its veracity . . .

In any event, it can't hurt to keep the tank more full than empty, can it?
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  #21  
Old 07-24-2011, 01:41 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

Ya. I always fill it up. And I always draw it down to nearly or on empty within range of known refueling facilities. Filling up twice as often is wasting time and I prefer to make the most of my time.
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  #22  
Old 07-24-2011, 03:44 PM
sgtsandman sgtsandman is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

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Originally Posted by FireRanger View Post
Well I guess I'm glad you haven't worked on aircraft I've flown or been a passenger in. Accomplishing the same function does not constitute identical design. You know that.
Ok, many of the parts of a car pump are made of plastic, are smaller, and generally operate at a higher pressure output than aircraft pumps (main wing tanks 14-19 psi, override pumps 30-40).

As far as identical design, no pump is the exactly same from manufacturer to manufacturer due to patents even in the same vehicle.

As far as the personal jab, I'll ignore it. I don't recall making one at you but if I did, I apologize.

AAA is not the only ones to state that there needs to be fuel the tank for cooling purposes (at least over the long term). Though, I'll admit, I couldn't quote who or what those references are at this time. And I don't have time to search at the moment.


Quote:
Well apparently all their years doesn't stop their marketing and PR departments from publishing complete horseshit on the internet. Regardless of our differing opinion on cooling, their incorrect BS about "bottom of the tank junk" is more than enough to completely discount anything else they babble about. So ya basically they don't know what they're talking about I guess.
We do agree on the bottom of the tank junk. I stated earlier that, that issue is a thing of the past. The same with the condensation issue in the tank.

But if we are to base our judgements of any auto related organization from just one article, I guess just about every magazine, TV show, auto parts store, not to mention the Haynes and Chilton manuals should all be ignored since they all have put out bad information at one time or another. Heck, the vehicle manufacturers are guilty of doing that as well. Can't believe them either...
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  #23  
Old 07-24-2011, 04:08 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

Plastic and PSI? That's the only thing different between any fuel pump design huh? It wasn't a personal jab. It was my honest belief and you keep reinforcing it with stuff like that.
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  #24  
Old 07-24-2011, 06:17 PM
sgtsandman sgtsandman is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

Here is some external links for you. Decide what you will with them.


http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/195

http://www.taxialmeria.com/automotiv...thusiasts.html

http://news.carjunky.com/how_stuff_w...s-cdh284.shtml

http://www.fuel-pumps.net/fuelpumpsfaq3.html

Just a google search away...
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  #25  
Old 07-24-2011, 06:29 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

And all of those links make no mention at all of submersion being required. In fact, they all say exactly what I said... that fuel flowing through them is what cools them. Two of them state some non-sense about the pump having to "work harder" when the tank level gets lower which has no actual basis and is BS. The pump intake is at the same point regardless of liquid level and it doesn't change how it operates.

The video is a laughable joke. Some old guy repeating an old wives tale that has no factual basis and uses general statements that don't apply to anything means nothing. His use of an 1/8 tank is rediculous. The pump will be submerged way way before 1/8 of a tank. And it is an advertisement (a poor one at that...)

So anyway, I do thank you for proving my point for me in this matter
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Last edited by FireRanger; 07-24-2011 at 06:34 PM.
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  #26  
Old 07-24-2011, 07:06 PM
sgtsandman sgtsandman is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtsandman View Post
Right below the fuel guage in the artcle:

Quote:
One of the leading causes of fuel pump failure is running the fuel tank low. This is particularly critical on late model vehicles without a fuel pressure return system. Running such a vehicle out of fuel one time can permanently damage the fuel pump.When the fuel level is low, the pump has to work much harder to produce the same pressure. This is because the reduced fuel weight no longer pushes fuel into the pump. Instead the pump must draw the fuel in. There is also less fuel to dissipate heat and the overworked pump is likely to be damaged.

Now, I do agree with you about the reduced fuel weight part. "Head"

pressure will have little bearing on fuel pump performance.

Quote:
http://www.taxialmeria.com/automotive-fuel-pump-maintenance-tips-for-do-it-yourself-enthusiasts.html
Fourth paragraph. Granted it doesn't mention pump cooling but it does mention lubrication by the pump:

Quote:
One of the basic things to remember in order to keep the fuel pump (as well as the car as a whole) in good shape is to never let the car run low or run out of fuel. Aside from being a propellant, fuel also acts as a lubricant for the pump. Letting the car run almost dry will also cause the pump to work without lubrication, which could cause damage to it.
Quote:
http://news.carjunky.com/how_stuff_works/the-fuel-pump-in-your-car--how-it-works-cdh284.shtml
Sixth paragraph:

Quote:
Newer, fuel-injected cars have electric fuel pumps fitted inside the fuel tank, which helps keep the fuel tank cool and makes sure thereís a steady supply of fuel to the engine. In a modern engine, everything working in relation to the fuel pump is monitored by the carís engine electronics to ensure that the right ratios of fuel and oxygen meet in the cylinders.
Quote:
http://www.fuel-pumps.net/fuelpumpsfaq3.html
Last paragraph:

Quote:
The automotive fuel injection fuel pumps from Walbro can be further divided into "in-tank" and "inline". This refers to the location of the fuel pump and is self explanatory. All of these fuel pumps are cooled and lubricated by the fuel that passes through them, so it is necessary that a continuous flow of fuel be realized. If you read the section of this FAQ on "Fuel Pressure Regulation" you will learn more about how the regulation of fuel-injection systems ensures that this happens.
Post #13 by myself I did mention that the fuel cools and lubricates the pump. I never stated that they must be submerged for cooling. I did mention that the more fuel in the tank, the better the heat sink the fuel will provide. I also did say that I didn't know how much cooling was done by submersion and how much by the fuel circulating in the pump itself.

Concerning psi, how do you measure fuel system pressure? Everything I've ever seen mentions attaching a gauge and reading the gauge in a certain psi range.

Concerning plastic. Yes, a fuel pump is not ALL plastic in a vehicle but it does have plastic components.


----------

I'm sure you will find problems with this reply as well.
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  #27  
Old 07-24-2011, 07:26 PM
TxRanger3006 TxRanger3006 is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

What's this gas that y'all speak of??? I never have to worry bout it cuz mine runs on hopes and dreams
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  #28  
Old 07-24-2011, 07:32 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default

The plastic and psi has nothing to do with this. The fuel level effecting pump effort is BS. Keeping the pump submerged is BS and not even practical.

Based on the random things you post about this, I dont even know what point you're actually trying to make anymore cause you're all over the place. If you have something relevant that actually makes sense, I'm all ears.

[Posted with my Android mobile device using Tapatalk Pro]
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  #29  
Old 07-24-2011, 07:44 PM
sgtsandman sgtsandman is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

Because you don't take the time to read everything and digest it. But when you're perfect and all knowing, I guess you don't need to.
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  #30  
Old 07-24-2011, 08:08 PM
SalRanger2 SalRanger2 is offline
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Default Re: Beware the dangers of running on empty

lol, dont mean to stir the pot but

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