Ford Ranger Forum - Forums for Ford Ranger enthusiasts!

Go Back   Ford Ranger Forum - Forums for Ford Ranger enthusiasts! > >
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Welcome to Ford Ranger Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread

  #1  
Old 03-12-2011, 04:15 PM
Gumcrew2 Gumcrew2 is offline
Ford Tough
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 287
Default Electrical BACKWARDS?

This morning I go out to crank the truck, starter solenoid clicks away like no tomorrow and starter doesn't turn. I check and 12V are coming out of the terminal when cranking. Pull the starter, jump it on the table, it's good.

Checked the ground from battery-frame-block, firewall-block, etc. There all good and tight. Checked ground on the starter solenoid is good.


Now here's where I get confused:: I pulled the negative terminal off the battery, and I show 12V of difference between ground on the battery and ground on the cable !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have narrowed it down to the computer main wire, when I hook it up to the starter solenoid hot side (constant hot), the +12 shows up on the negative side of things.

Hot - ground somewhere? What could short and die and let current pass openly like that? Nothing else has changed. I swapped the starter solenoid and starter with new anyway because I had them on hand.

Thanks in advance
Saul
__________________
'83 Ford Ranger 2.3L 4Spd, Dual Tanks, 195/60R15's, Welded Rear End TOTALLED AT 483,211 MILES
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-12-2011, 04:17 PM
DHEM DHEM is offline
Resident Red
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,003
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

your solenoid hold in winding is bad, hence the clicking like no tomorrow. replace the solenoid.
__________________
'05 2wd Ranger xl with the 3.0

MODS-Alpine head unit, throttle cable mod, Black Rock wheels, FX4 lvl II axle swap, pooleo's camo painted bezel and mustang dome, painted/aftermarket headlights/tails fold-a-cover and over 100 hp in stickers
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-12-2011, 04:23 PM
Gumcrew2 Gumcrew2 is offline
Ford Tough
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 287
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHEM View Post
your solenoid hold in winding is bad, hence the clicking like no tomorrow. replace the solenoid.
Did the same with both old and brand new solenoid (have brand new one in it now).

Solenoid clicks like it's trying, and outputs 12V+ from the starter side terminal when cranking like it should.
__________________
'83 Ford Ranger 2.3L 4Spd, Dual Tanks, 195/60R15's, Welded Rear End TOTALLED AT 483,211 MILES
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-12-2011, 04:46 PM
DHEM DHEM is offline
Resident Red
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,003
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

is the battery good still, as in does it still put out its full cranking amps?
__________________
'05 2wd Ranger xl with the 3.0

MODS-Alpine head unit, throttle cable mod, Black Rock wheels, FX4 lvl II axle swap, pooleo's camo painted bezel and mustang dome, painted/aftermarket headlights/tails fold-a-cover and over 100 hp in stickers
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-12-2011, 05:01 PM
Gumcrew2 Gumcrew2 is offline
Ford Tough
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 287
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHEM View Post
is the battery good still, as in does it still put out its full cranking amps?
I was suspect of battery (it started when it was -30 last month though)
So I swapped in the absorbed-glass-mat 1000CCA battery from my Jeep and no different.
__________________
'83 Ford Ranger 2.3L 4Spd, Dual Tanks, 195/60R15's, Welded Rear End TOTALLED AT 483,211 MILES
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-12-2011, 05:01 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
Blinded by the light
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,674
Send a message via AIM to FireRanger
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

Nothing out of the ordinary dude. With the cable disconnected, you are seeing +12 on the negative cable because the other end of it, through all the electrical components like lightbulbs and stuff, is the + side of the battery. This is perfectly normal to see on a meter.

Clicking like you are describing is usually due to a dead battery. So put it back together and try jump starting it before you go nuts. Other common causes are crappy cable connections to the battery, or crappy connections to the chassis and body grounds.
__________________
(Formerly)
FireRanger
2003 Edge 4.0 4wd

How to: Aux light wiring, relays, & fuses
Info: 300+ intake threads here on FRF
Info: HID Projectors
How To: NO HEAT Troubleshooting Guide
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-12-2011, 05:03 PM
Gumcrew2 Gumcrew2 is offline
Ford Tough
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 287
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

So I can jump the starter and make it start on the bench.
I just tried with the starter installed with a (-) jumper cable on the starter bolts/housing, and the (+) jumper cable on the wire hookep on the starter. Hook the other ends straight to battery and the starter does NOT start.

So I must have some + wire going to ground somewhere., it's not generating enough current difference to turn the starter motor
__________________
'83 Ford Ranger 2.3L 4Spd, Dual Tanks, 195/60R15's, Welded Rear End TOTALLED AT 483,211 MILES
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-12-2011, 05:17 PM
DHEM DHEM is offline
Resident Red
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,003
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

try a voltage drop test on the + and - circuit, because you do have a good battery, new starter, new solenoid so there must be a bad connection/resistance somewhere
__________________
'05 2wd Ranger xl with the 3.0

MODS-Alpine head unit, throttle cable mod, Black Rock wheels, FX4 lvl II axle swap, pooleo's camo painted bezel and mustang dome, painted/aftermarket headlights/tails fold-a-cover and over 100 hp in stickers
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-12-2011, 05:26 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
Blinded by the light
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,674
Send a message via AIM to FireRanger
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

Which terminal are you putting the + cable on at the starter?
__________________
(Formerly)
FireRanger
2003 Edge 4.0 4wd

How to: Aux light wiring, relays, & fuses
Info: 300+ intake threads here on FRF
Info: HID Projectors
How To: NO HEAT Troubleshooting Guide
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-12-2011, 07:54 PM
Gumcrew2 Gumcrew2 is offline
Ford Tough
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 287
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireRanger View Post
Which terminal are you putting the + cable on at the starter?
where the one wire from the starter solenoid normally contacts.



Ok, I've now put in new wires for (I had the wire so might as well use it) ground from firewall-block, battery-frame-block, bat-frame.
new wire from bat+ to starter solenoid, solenoid -starter.

Where else could I have a major point of resistance enought to not allow enough current to pull through it?



About a month ago I had the starter solenoid go click=-click like this once when the firewall-block ground was disconnected. Nothing since until now.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHEM View Post
try a voltage drop test on the + and - circuit, because you do have a good battery, new starter, new solenoid so there must be a bad connection/resistance somewhere
I show from .25-.5 V difference between various different location grounds but nothing more than that.

Got it all together again and with a fully charged battery and the charger hooked up in "jump" mode (55amps/220v)::
Same operating condition: no change
__________________
'83 Ford Ranger 2.3L 4Spd, Dual Tanks, 195/60R15's, Welded Rear End TOTALLED AT 483,211 MILES
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-12-2011, 09:11 PM
DHEM DHEM is offline
Resident Red
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,003
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

the entire positive side should be .5v max, the ground should be less. areas of resistance can be the wires/cables, all wire connections, wafer disc/contacts in solenoid, armature brushes in starter and other various switches.

another possibility could be binding, but that usually means slow cranking, and usually just doesn't happen suddenly, and it would make other noises, but since you went through all other things, might as well check that out.
__________________
'05 2wd Ranger xl with the 3.0

MODS-Alpine head unit, throttle cable mod, Black Rock wheels, FX4 lvl II axle swap, pooleo's camo painted bezel and mustang dome, painted/aftermarket headlights/tails fold-a-cover and over 100 hp in stickers
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-12-2011, 10:58 PM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
Blinded by the light
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,674
Send a message via AIM to FireRanger
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumcrew2 View Post
where the one wire from the starter solenoid normally contacts.
OK. So I need you to test something else then VERY VERY CAREFULLY. Obviously you're dealing with unfused, unrestricted, unprotected current with jumper cables like this. DO NOT slip and touch the positive clamp to ground.

There is the other big terminal on the starter. It is what the starter's built in relay makes contact with and that big terminal is direct primary power to the starter motor. If you connect the positive jumper cable to that big terminal, the starter motor will immediately begin to crank. See if that makes the engine turn over.

If the engine doesn't turn over, then it is seized or otherwise jammed. You're fucked in some serious way.

If the engine does turn over, then the problem is in the starter control circuit. It goes like this....

Battery >> Underhood power distro box fuse >> Key cylinder >> Underhood power distro box relay >> Start's built in relay. Something in there is fucked up.
__________________
(Formerly)
FireRanger
2003 Edge 4.0 4wd

How to: Aux light wiring, relays, & fuses
Info: 300+ intake threads here on FRF
Info: HID Projectors
How To: NO HEAT Troubleshooting Guide
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-13-2011, 09:27 AM
Gumcrew2 Gumcrew2 is offline
Ford Tough
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 287
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHEM View Post
the entire positive side should be .5v max, the ground should be less. areas of resistance can be the wires/cables, all wire connections, wafer disc/contacts in solenoid, armature brushes in starter and other various switches.

another possibility could be binding, but that usually means slow cranking, and usually just doesn't happen suddenly, and it would make other noises, but since you went through all other things, might as well check that out.
"The entire positive side should be .5v max"-- please clarify that one: do you mean running a multimeter from + bat terminal to + on starter relay should draw out less than 0.5v?

I still have not been able to make the starter turn while in the truck. Once I establish that I should be clear on where my fault is. Keep trying.

Thanks for the help guys. I'll post back shortly as I continue progress.
__________________
'83 Ford Ranger 2.3L 4Spd, Dual Tanks, 195/60R15's, Welded Rear End TOTALLED AT 483,211 MILES
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-13-2011, 10:33 AM
DHEM DHEM is offline
Resident Red
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,003
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

i meant in no more than .5v of voltage drop +, and it should be less for the ground.
__________________
'05 2wd Ranger xl with the 3.0

MODS-Alpine head unit, throttle cable mod, Black Rock wheels, FX4 lvl II axle swap, pooleo's camo painted bezel and mustang dome, painted/aftermarket headlights/tails fold-a-cover and over 100 hp in stickers
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-13-2011, 01:19 PM
Gumcrew2 Gumcrew2 is offline
Ford Tough
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 287
Default Re: Electrical BACKWARDS?

FIXED!

The culprit:

On the starter wire at the starter end the connection was originally bolthead-wire-copperterminal- starter nut (backside is threaded).

The old starter was not getting enough current in this setup to prove reliable. The wire should have been pinched between the copper and the starter nut side.

SO when I swapped the starter the new starter had a o-so-slightly different copper terminal for the wire, and the bolt, when inserted the correct way, was long enough to just barely touch the side of the starter housing. Resulting in a ground when cranking.


I cut 2 threads off the bolt to shorten it up and it starts like a champ.
Thanks for the help! Never had a simple starting system fight so hard
__________________
'83 Ford Ranger 2.3L 4Spd, Dual Tanks, 195/60R15's, Welded Rear End TOTALLED AT 483,211 MILES
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
electrical problem.... Travis S. Electrical Tech 4 12-07-2010 08:45 AM
electrical problems hess1222 Electrical Tech 16 06-14-2010 08:11 AM
You know, if you watch 'Fight Club' backwards... Tom Music/Movies/Computers/etc. 9 05-07-2010 01:11 PM
Electrical Problems sgampp01 Electrical Tech 1 03-30-2010 01:10 PM
Electrical Overkill? FX4 Electrical Tech 4 02-25-2010 02:09 PM