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  #16  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:39 AM
turbo turbo is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
Agreed, 40 lbs. isn't much compared to the weight of the vehicle. But 40 lbs. hanging off the front can definitely affect steering response and handling on the pavement, especially in the rain or in emergency maneuvers. I do know from my own experience it can make the front end dive significantly under heavy braking,
I disagree with your conclusions, and feel they do not correlate well with established principles of physics. An additional 1% of mass, applied at any point on the moving body, would have a negligible effect on the overall coefficient of friction between the moving body and the road surface, nor would it affect the maneuverability of the vehicle in any meaningful way.

Do you have any basis for your conclusions/information, published by any recognized authority in automobile safety or engineering?

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Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
Not dissin' brush guards... the OP asked for opinions/input, this is my contribution. Just some things to consider.
...and, likewise, I'm not promoting brush guards -- simply expressing my opinions and offering my input.
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2001 Ranger XLT 4.0L SOHC
Silver Frost w/ Dark Graphite interior


Modifications
Summit 3" Body Lift
31x10.50 A/T tires
Explorer overhead console
Explorer auto-dim mirror
Explorer auto-headlights
Aux1 & Aux2 inputs on factory AM/FM/CD/Cassette
Door-dinger silencer button
Seamless retractable roof and passenger-side ejection seat with steering wheel mounted controls and safety interlock
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  #17  
Old 07-14-2011, 07:01 AM
Boogyman Boogyman is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

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Originally Posted by turbo View Post
I disagree with your conclusions, and feel they do not correlate well with established principles of physics. An additional 1% of mass, applied at any point on the moving body, would have a negligible effect on the overall coefficient of friction between the moving body and the road surface, nor would it affect the maneuverability of the vehicle in any meaningful way.

Do you have any basis for your conclusions/information, published by any recognized authority in automobile safety or engineering?



...and, likewise, I'm not promoting brush guards -- simply expressing my opinions and offering my input.
Brush up on your physics my dear Watson. Your mistake is "applied at any point on the moving body". Adding weight to the extreme end of the body is much more significant than adding it near center body mass. Centrifugal force multiplies mass effect exponentially under motion.
Like twirling a stick with a weight on it... with the weight at the center of the stick no problem. Move the weight to the end of the stick and try it.

Also in your mention of the "effect on the overall coefficient of friction between the moving body and the road surface" you fail to consider the variables created by the suspension components which are between the body and the road surface... such as lift kits, big bouncy tires, so on. Adding a heavy rollbar with a lot of lights horns whatever on top of a 6" lifted small truck naturally contributes to topheaviness, increasing the chance of a rollover.

But of course you don't need an understanding of physics to get this, just common sense.

Last edited by Boogyman; 07-14-2011 at 07:18 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:50 PM
turbo turbo is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

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Brush up on your physics my dear Watson.
I have already taken 4 years of post-graduate physics at a large, well-known engineering university in the Northeast US... I don't think I need any more.

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Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
Your mistake is... [ blah blah blah blah ] ...of course you don't need an understanding of physics to get this, just common sense.
I didn't see any references from you in your post, other than allusions to your own "common sense" regarding your proposition. As such, I'll just assume you have no such references to support your argument.

"Common sense", you know, isn't nearly as common as popular usage of that term would tend to indicate. It wasn't so many years ago that the "common sense" approach to the universe held that everything rotated around the (flat) earth; those that dared to defy this "common sense" were thought to be pagans shouting sacrilege and often put to death by the ruling class.
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2001 Ranger XLT 4.0L SOHC
Silver Frost w/ Dark Graphite interior


Modifications
Summit 3" Body Lift
31x10.50 A/T tires
Explorer overhead console
Explorer auto-dim mirror
Explorer auto-headlights
Aux1 & Aux2 inputs on factory AM/FM/CD/Cassette
Door-dinger silencer button
Seamless retractable roof and passenger-side ejection seat with steering wheel mounted controls and safety interlock
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  #19  
Old 07-14-2011, 03:16 PM
haybo19 haybo19 is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

i have had no effect on gas mileage, nor does it add to the roll over effect, unoticable affect on braking and handling, the only crud part is that it add about 8 inches of length to the truck, but mine gets used alot in da woods
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  #20  
Old 07-14-2011, 08:48 PM
Boogyman Boogyman is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

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Originally Posted by turbo View Post
I have already taken 4 years of post-graduate physics at a large, well-known engineering university in the Northeast US... I don't think I need any more.
Since you don't seem to grasp the basics of centrifugal force, and even fail to understand the most fundamental weight-on-a-stick demonstration, it's quite obvious you do need more. Perhaps a post-grad refresher is in order?

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Originally Posted by turbo View Post
I didn't see any references from you in your post, other than allusions to your own "common sense" regarding your proposition. As such, I'll just assume you have no such references to support your argument.
Really? Falling back on that weak sauce? You're kidding, right?

Look, I know you can't possibly be that dumb. You know full well that what I'm saying is physically correct and scientifically factual. You just refuse to acknowledge it due to fear of a bruised ego. Although disappointing, it's certainly no suprise that you deliberately deleted the pertinent explanations when quoting my post and replaced them with "blah blah blah", and then insisted that I google up some 'evidence' which you will predictably dismiss anyway. Sorry, not playing that game... you're hardly the first person I've encountered on the internet who chooses to immerse themselves in stubborn denial rather than acknowledge the truth. Further argument with guys like you is a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by turbo View Post
"Common sense", you know, isn't nearly as common as popular usage of that term would tend to indicate.
That I can agree with, since you don't seem to have any. Good luck with that.

Last edited by Boogyman; 07-14-2011 at 08:54 PM.
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  #21  
Old 07-15-2011, 11:19 PM
turbo turbo is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

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Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
Really? Falling back on that weak sauce? You're kidding, right?
Kidding? Because you assert an absurdity, and I have the temerity to ask you to cite any sort of recognized authority or expert that can back up your claim? You simply refuse to answer a simple question, and instead take an(other) opportunity to insult me.

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Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
Look, I know you can't possibly be that dumb.
I resent your implication that my mental acuity is in any way inferior. I have reported your post to the moderators, as you seem to be driving this discussion toward personal insults.

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Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
You know full well that what I'm saying is physically correct and scientifically factual.
I know no such thing; in fact, I've stated repeatedly that what you're saying is not physically possible nor is your statement, reasoning, or hypothetical "thought experiment" scientifically sound.

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Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
You just refuse to acknowledge it due to fear of a bruised ego.
I refuse to acknowledge it, due to the abject absurdity of your statement, that you resolutely refuse to provide any measure of scientific evidence to support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
though disappointing, it's certainly no suprise that you deliberately deleted the pertinent explanations when quoting my post and replaced them with "blah blah blah", and then insisted that I google up some 'evidence' which you will predictably dismiss anyway. Sorry, not playing that game... you're hardly the first person I've encountered on the internet who chooses to immerse themselves in stubborn denial rather than acknowledge the truth. Further argument with guys like you is a waste of time.

No, I don't want you to google anything -- you seem to have a strange perception on how physics works, and have created some convoluted "thought experiment" that seems to be based on cartoon physics, or some television or movie special effects.

I understand, perfectly well, about centers of gravity, moments of inertia, and so on; my comments to you in this thread are meant to imply that I don't think you understand it very well, or are perhaps believing what you see on television shows or movies a bit too much.

What I would suggest you do, rather than hypothesize about some unmeasured weight on the end of a stick, is to put forth a rational, repeatable experiment that backs up your theory. In short, this would involve two identical masses with a CoG approximately where the CoG on a Ford Ranger pickup would be. You can do this in miniature or full-scale (involving actual Ranger vehicles, I suppose). Next, add 1% of total body mass to one of the models, located directly in front of the CoG, approximately 1/8th of the total model length distant from the CoG. Then, run your test; demonstrate this "significant nose diving" and/or "rollover potential" you assert in your previous statements. As I have already stated, you will find that the coefficient of friction will not vary between the two by any measurably significant amount; you will find that overall braking, handling, and maneuverability of both models will be nearly identical and (again) measurably insignificant.

Your example, translated into actual scale, would be the equivalent of welding a Volkswagen Beetle (or Jetta, I suppose) to the front of a Ranger, and measuring the (no doubt, highly significant) effect on all operating parameters.

Finally, in conclusion: I find your condescending tone towards my posts here to be insulting. I have made absolutely no personal references to you, nor any disparaging remarks (however thinly veiled) regarding your intelligence -- I don't think you can honestly say you've done the same.

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Originally Posted by Boogyman View Post
That I can agree with, since you don't seem to have any. Good luck with that.
And, here again, instead of continuing the discussion in an intellectually honest manner, you choose to engage in personal attacks, calling into question whether or not I possess any "common sense".

Since it seems obvious that you cannot hold a civil conversation or engage in a simple dialogue without degenerating the discussion into personal attacks when your unproven assertations are called into question, I am done talking with you on this subject. Please don't bother replying, as it seems you will only use the occasion of your reply to hurl further insults upon my character, education, intelligence, and ability; it belittles you in the eyes of the internet audience you so ravenously desire to win approval from.
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2001 Ranger XLT 4.0L SOHC
Silver Frost w/ Dark Graphite interior


Modifications
Summit 3" Body Lift
31x10.50 A/T tires
Explorer overhead console
Explorer auto-dim mirror
Explorer auto-headlights
Aux1 & Aux2 inputs on factory AM/FM/CD/Cassette
Door-dinger silencer button
Seamless retractable roof and passenger-side ejection seat with steering wheel mounted controls and safety interlock
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  #22  
Old 07-16-2011, 07:56 AM
Boogyman Boogyman is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo View Post
Kidding? Because you assert an absurdity, and I have the temerity to ask you to cite any sort of recognized authority or expert that can back up your claim?
Dude... it's the ol' weight-on-a-stick experiment taught in 5th grade science. You can find it in any elementary school textbook. You're asking me to cite a "recognized authority or expert" for that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo View Post
what you're saying is not physically possible nor is your statement, reasoning, or hypothetical "thought experiment" scientifically sound.

the abject absurdity of your statement

you seem to have a strange perception on how physics works, and have created some convoluted "thought experiment" that seems to be based on cartoon physics, or some television or movie special effects
"Physically impossible"? "Cartoon physics"? Seriously?

Look, it's a very basic demonstration of inertial effect on mass in motion, more simply known as centrifugal force. The length of the stick or the weight of the mass can easily be adjusted to correlate to the length of a Ranger and the weight of the grill guard. In any case the effect would be measurable, and any measurable result would be significant and have an effect on extreme handling and braking conditions. The significance of this effect depends on many different factors such as suspension components, height of lift, size of tires, weight and placement of accessories (rollbars, lights, etc.) and so on.

All I've been saying all along is that when adding accessories such as brush guards to one's truck it would be wise to consider all these factors. Friendly common sense advice, nothing more.

You seem to have taken offense towards this advice and have tried to ridicule and dismiss it out-of-hand. I can only assume that you feel that your decision to install a brush guard on your truck is being attacked in some way. I've tried to make it clear that is not the case at all. I never said it's anything even close to "the equivalent of welding a Volkswagen Beetle to the front of a Ranger". I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth or exaggerating my statements in an attempt to dramatize and justify your over-reaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo View Post
I find your condescending tone towards my posts here to be insulting. I have made absolutely no personal references to you, nor any disparaging remarks (however thinly veiled) regarding your intelligence
Oh please. Read your comments above and stop pretending to be the victim. The difference between you and I is that I consider your little potshots amusing at best, certainly not worth getting my panties in a bunch and running to the mods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo View Post
I resent your implication that my mental acuity is in any way inferior. I have reported your post to the moderators, as you seem to be driving this discussion toward personal insults.
I believe you're being just a tad over-sensitive... but if you truly are insulted by what I intended as friendly jabs then I apologize sincerely. I'll remember to be more delicate when addressing you in the future.
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  #23  
Old 07-16-2011, 10:14 AM
turbo turbo is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

Quote:
I believe you're being just a tad over-sensitive... but if you truly are insulted by what I intended as friendly jabs then I apologize sincerely. I'll remember to be more delicate when addressing you in the future.
Again, with the condescending tone, with undercurrents of sarcasm and thinly veiled insults!

If you're not familiar with the scientific experimentation method, then simply admit it (if only to yourself) and accept that your understanding of the physical sciences is inadequate to participate in this conversation. Calling my intelligence, knowledge, achievements, or personality into question does nothing to bolster your position; it serves only to indicate that you are unwilling or unable to participate intellectually in the discussion or provide any tangible proof of the conclusions you have reached. Instead, in follow-up after follow-up, you have attempted to derail the dialogue into a schoolyard taunt in order to distract the casual reader from the defenselessness of your position; this seems to be the classic tactic of the "internet troll".

A casual observer might conclude that it is you that cannot be reasoned with, and the one steadfastly adhering to hypothetical thought experiments instead of resorting to a rational exercise in standardized scientific method.

You have offered nothing other than your opinion on what the science might indicate, and bolstered your opinion with your interpretation of scientific process by tangentially linking it to a middle-school experiment with pendulums.


In Summary

You contend, earlier in this thread, that brush guards and other such accessories have measurable negative effects on vehicle handling, performance, and safety. I disagree, and ask again that you provide us with the raw data from which you've drawn your conclusions.


You needn't reply if your only response to this simple question will be to, again, question my intelligence, integrity, intellectual honesty, or emotional stability.
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2001 Ranger XLT 4.0L SOHC
Silver Frost w/ Dark Graphite interior


Modifications
Summit 3" Body Lift
31x10.50 A/T tires
Explorer overhead console
Explorer auto-dim mirror
Explorer auto-headlights
Aux1 & Aux2 inputs on factory AM/FM/CD/Cassette
Door-dinger silencer button
Seamless retractable roof and passenger-side ejection seat with steering wheel mounted controls and safety interlock
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  #24  
Old 07-16-2011, 11:24 AM
edgeman4.0 edgeman4.0 is offline
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Mother of god I can't believe I read all of that.



If you look very closely, turbo. You'll see that my truck is spinning due to the added 45 pounds of brushguard. Even at a complete stop in my yard.. lmao

Booger man, can you tell us how magnets work?

Sent from my DROIDX
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  #25  
Old 07-16-2011, 11:39 AM
jacobxstanley jacobxstanley is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edgeman4.0 View Post
Booger man, can you tell us how magnets work?

Sent from my DROIDX
miracles.
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  #26  
Old 07-16-2011, 05:01 PM
Boogyman Boogyman is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

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Originally Posted by turbo View Post
Again, with the condescending tone, with undercurrents of sarcasm and thinly veiled insults!
Jeebus.

For the umpteenth time:

All I've been saying all along is that when adding accessories such as brush guards to one's truck it would be wise to consider all these factors. Friendly common sense advice, nothing more.

Now, if you actually believe that the modified truck in the first pic is absolutely unaffected by the added accessories and handles/brakes just as well as the stock truck in the second pic, then you are in serious denial my friend.
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2011, 07:01 PM
turbo turbo is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

okay... so then, you don't have any supporting material facts upon which you base your theory, other than some randomly selected static pictures of a modified and unmodified Ford Ranger truck, and a generic re-re-re-re-restatement of your original statement that led to questioning the basis thereof.

you are talking in circles. your conclusions are specious, not unlike the unfounded claims of Ponds & Fleishman a few years back.

Quote:
then you are in serious denial my friend
a) I am not in denial of anything; it is you that are denying all of us the supporting basis for your ridiculous claim.

b) I do not know you, and I see nothing in this thread that could possibly lead you to believe we are involved in any sort of 'friendship'; perhaps you are suffering from some sort of delusion, or are under the influence of some powerful narcotic and/or hallucinogenic substance -- that would certainly help to explain your non-response to a simple question, and your constant need to sidetrack the discussion in any manner of distraction that might cause the reader to lose focus of the very simple question asked of you.

----------

Edgeman4.0 -- neat trick. you should create an animated GIF avatar of your truck in perpetual somersaults.

me? my truck is currently flexing on a gum wrapper, out in the parking lot.
__________________
2001 Ranger XLT 4.0L SOHC
Silver Frost w/ Dark Graphite interior


Modifications
Summit 3" Body Lift
31x10.50 A/T tires
Explorer overhead console
Explorer auto-dim mirror
Explorer auto-headlights
Aux1 & Aux2 inputs on factory AM/FM/CD/Cassette
Door-dinger silencer button
Seamless retractable roof and passenger-side ejection seat with steering wheel mounted controls and safety interlock
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  #28  
Old 07-16-2011, 07:36 PM
matt224 matt224 is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

40# is quite a bit of weight, and all hanging up the front. While I don't think it will have a severe impact on drivability, it definately will have some. 40# might not seem like a lot when compared to the whole truck, but it is a good bit of weight. Car batteries generally weigh around 40-50# and there is a reason a lot of people relocate them to the trunk of the car; and our trucks are already front heavy. Just be wary that your truck might drive slightly different.

other than that, go for it if you think it looks good. Personally, I think they are generally pretty ugly.
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  #29  
Old 07-16-2011, 08:23 PM
Boogyman Boogyman is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo View Post
a) I am not in denial of anything
Yes, you are. As i said, arguing with guys like you is a waste of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo View Post
b) I do not know you, and I see nothing in this thread that could possibly lead you to believe we are involved in any sort of 'friendship'; perhaps you are suffering from some sort of delusion, or are under the influence of some powerful narcotic and/or hallucinogenic substance
Yep, you're absolutely correct. I could never maintain a friendship with the likes of you.

Btw, you've been repeatedly whining about my not providing an "expert" opinion. Before retiring a few years back, I was an ASE certified auto tech for 28 years. 18 of those years were as a line mechanic for Ford Motor Company. I've installed every modification and accessory relevant to this discussion on countless occasions, and test driven thousands of vehicles from bone stock to mildly modified to wildly modified. But of course you'll dismiss all my years of training and experience in lieu of your own vast automotive knowledge gained as a result of being a 'rocket scientist'... he he. Or, you'll continue with your amusing insults implying I'm a drug addict or insane and the like. Whatever.

But here's the really funny part. Over the years, my advice to all my customers has always been the same... to consider the effects that some modifications can have on their vehicles handling, braking, and safety before proceeding, even if it meant they might decide not to go ahead with their mods thus costing me some business. And NOT ONE of them have ever taken offense at my suggestions.

You, on the other hand, have been so offended and defensive at my words as to stubbornly deny the reality of a long established elementary textbook experiment. You've accused me of everything from being on drugs to being delusionally insane, and then pretended as though I'm the one hurling insults, even going so far as to report my posts to the mods like a butt-hurt teenage girl.
In short, you've reacted to a simple post of friendly advice with an obsessive tirade of long-winded foolishness worthy of the most ridiculous of internet douchebaggery.

I should have listened to my own advice earlier and simply ceased any further attempts to get through your cement wall of stubborn denial. My mistake. I will now take that advice. Have it your way, Mr. Rocket Scientist'.

No hard feelings.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt224 View Post
40# is quite a bit of weight, and all hanging up the front. While I don't think it will have a severe impact on drivability, it definately will have some. 40# might not seem like a lot when compared to the whole truck, but it is a good bit of weight. Car batteries generally weigh around 40-50# and there is a reason a lot of people relocate them to the trunk of the car; and our trucks are already front heavy. Just be wary that your truck might drive slightly different.

other than that, go for it if you think it looks good. Personally, I think they are generally pretty ugly.
Good advice. You will now be subjected to Mr. Turbo's reaction... or should I say over-reaction. Enjoy!

Last edited by Boogyman; 07-16-2011 at 08:29 PM.
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  #30  
Old 07-16-2011, 08:58 PM
ColinS ColinS is offline
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Default Re: Grille Guard or no?

i cant belive i have read all of that lol. but while reading i have come to the conclusion boogyman is correct with this argument. adding the weight MAY affect the performacne in someway but it will probley be hardly noticble unless in the most perfect of situations.

And for turbo to help further boogyman go to lowes and buy a 12ft piece of 2x4 lumber. now

Step 1: pick it up in the exact middle. its very balanced and easy to manuever ( as a 12ft piece of lumber can be)

step 2: now go pick it up at the back and try to lift it all up in the air. you will find you cant cause of how the weight is ditributed. ( you now just created a model or how a perfectly balanced ranger from the factory is now affected by the extra weight on the end throwing off the balance of the truck)

step 3: now go buy a bunch more lumber (40lb worth) throw it in the bed at the rear and bam you now have a balanced ranger again witch will be slightly near stock.
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