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  #16  
Old 06-17-2011, 07:19 PM
fletcher969 fletcher969 is offline
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Default Re: PLEASE! Need help ASAP...

Ok...I dropped the pan. The good news is there weren't any broken parts laying in the pan. Here's what I observed:

1. Magnet: There was about a heaping teaspoon of "sludge" on the magnet. No shavings...just sludge.

2. Shaving: The There were a few (5 or 6 or so) very small shavings in the bottom, but I have no idea if that's normal or not.

3. Discs: I'm not sure where they originated, but there were 4 really small metal discs...maybe 3 mm in diameter, and about 2mm thick in the bottom of the pan (actually, one was on the pan's gasket flange, one was right on top of the sludge on the magnet, like it had just fallen on it). The only thing I noted that even looked remotely close to these were some "disc-like" inserts(?) in the gasket flange, but I didn't see where any were missing.

4. Harness: I checked the wiring harness, and I can't see any obvious defects or shorts.

5. I looked at each of the solenoids, and the only thing notable is that one of them rotates a little (i.e. I can move it).

6. Fluid was red, but had a "metal flake" look to it. Like one might see in a car paint. Probably not a good sign for one month's of use, unless it picked it up from the filter.

7. Filter was filthy! I'm sure, if nothing else, the tranny will "breath" a little easier when I run the new one regardless of its condition.

Unfortunately, my multimeter is stored away, and my buddy's is loaned out this weekend. I won't be able to ohm the solenoid(s). Crud!

Also, a few questions:

1. Which solenoid is C on the 4R44E? UPDATE: Never mind...I found a diagram. It looks like the solenoid I can rotate is the EPC (one furthest to the rear on the side with 4 solenoids), which has been mentioned already as a possibility. Solenoid C (i.e. #3 if that is in fact the one associated with a DTC-P0761) is on the other side in the corner.

2. Is any solenoid supposed to have any play? As indicated above, my EPC solenoid (rearmost on the side with 4 solenoids) can be rotated about 5-10 degrees in either direction with a couple of fingers. None of the others budged at all.

3. Once the valve body is wiped free of fluid, is/are there any area(s) that would continue to drip fluid? I have one area by the rear filter "hole" in the valve body, and next to it there is a spring/assembly in a recess. Fluid is dripping from that recess where the spring can be seen, and has been for well over 60 minutes.

4. What kind of indications am I looking for where the wiring harness is concerned? As it is, it all looks ok eyeballing and handling it.
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Last edited by fletcher969; 06-17-2011 at 09:08 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-17-2011, 09:08 PM
Fordzilla80 Fordzilla80 is offline
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Default Re: PLEASE! Need help ASAP...

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Originally Posted by fletcher969 View Post
Ok...I dropped the pan. The good news is there weren't any broken parts laying in the pan. Here's what I observed:

1. Magnet: There was about a heaping teaspoon of "sludge" on the magnet. No shavings...just sludge.

2. Shaving: The There were a few (5 or so or so) very small shavings in the bottom, but I have no idea if that's normal or not.

3. Discs: I'm not sure where they originated, but there were 4 really small metal discs...maybe 3 mm in diameter, and about 2mm thick in the bottom of the pan (actually, one was on the pan's gasket flange, one was right on top of the sludge on the magnet, like it had just fallen on it). The only thing I noted that even looked remotely close to these were some "disc-like" inserts(?) in the gasket flange, but I didn't see where any were missing.

4. Harness: I checked the wiring harness, and I can't see any obvious defects or shorts.

5. I looked at each of the solenoids, and the only thing notable is that one of them rotates a little (i.e. I can move it).

6. Fluid was red, but had a "metal flake" look to it. Like one might see in a car paint. Swirled a little. Probably not a good sign for one month's of use, unless it picked it up from the filter.

7. Filter was filthy! I'm sure, if nothing else, the tranny will "breath" a little easier when I run the new one.

Unfortunately, my multimeter is stored away, and my buddy's is loaned out this weekend. I won't be able to ohm the solenoid(s). Crud!

Also, a few questions:

1. Which solenoid is C on the 4R44E (I"m pretty sure that the one in the '96, 2.3L, 2wd)?

2. Is any solenoid supposed to have any play? The one I mentioned above is on the side with the 4 solenoids, and is closest to the REAR (sorry if anybody saw this before I edited it wherein I said the front...it's the furthest to the rear). It rotates about 5 degrees in either direction. Not much, but none of the others budged at all.

3. Once the valve body is wiped free of fluid, is/are there any area(s) that would continue to drip fluid? I have one area by the rear filter "hole" in the valve body, and next to it there is a spring/assembly. Fluid is dripping from that recess where the spring can be seen, and has been for well over 30 minutes.

4. What kind of indications am I looking for where the wiring harness is concerned? As it is, it all looks ok eyeballing and handling it.
The tiny discs sound like the ones used in the original trans pan gasket to keep it from getting crushed during assembly. '

You will need to try and figure out why that solenoid is moving. At this moment I'm strapped for time, so I will have to look tomorrow at my trans book to see the location of the C solenoid.

There should not be any kind of metal flake in the fluid itself, that should be trapped by the magnet in the pan. Clean the magnet off and make sure it hasn't lost it's attraction abilities.

As for the valve body leakage, you're probably still getting fluid seeping out of the fluid passages in the upper body.

And for the wiring harness, you need to look for breaks in the wiring, and loose connections to the solenoids. Look at the connectors and check to see if they are loose on the solenoids.
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  #18  
Old 06-17-2011, 10:24 PM
fletcher969 fletcher969 is offline
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Default Re: PLEASE! Need help ASAP...

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Originally Posted by Fordzilla80 View Post
The tiny discs sound like the ones used in the original trans pan gasket to keep it from getting crushed during assembly. '

You will need to try and figure out why that solenoid is moving. At this moment I'm strapped for time, so I will have to look tomorrow at my trans book to see the location of the C solenoid.

There should not be any kind of metal flake in the fluid itself, that should be trapped by the magnet in the pan. Clean the magnet off and make sure it hasn't lost it's attraction abilities.

As for the valve body leakage, you're probably still getting fluid seeping out of the fluid passages in the upper body.

And for the wiring harness, you need to look for breaks in the wiring, and loose connections to the solenoids. Look at the connectors and check to see if they are loose on the solenoids.

Ok...I'll accept your explanation of those discs. Makes perfect sense given what I observed on that flange (marks that mirrored the size and shape of those discs)! When you described those discs, and said they indicate the "original trans pan gasket"....would the presence of those discs be indicative of a tranny pan that's never been dropped?

I checked the harness for obvious signs of damage, etc., and saw nothing, but I'll look more closely in/around the #3. I wasn't really focusing in that area specifically as I had it in my head the #3 was on the other side for whatever reason.

By metal flake, I meant more like metal "dust" like one would see in metal-flake car paints. I'll look more closely tomorrow. Perhaps it's just dirt/crap, and not metal, or the magnet was so covered with "sludge" that it wasn't picking things out of the fluid. As for the magnet...it works. It's not very strong though.

I edited my original post after you "grabbed" my message for reply, but in the interim, I indicated that I had found a diagram that shows the #3 solenoid...which I assume is the same solenoid indicated by the P0761 DTC "Solenoid C." In any event, it's on the other side from where the four are located, near the corner (front). The one I can move appears to be the EPC...the very one you mentioned might be worthy of consideration, and which I said had been lurking in the back of my mind from things I had read. I'm rather curious to know if that thing is supposed to move at all, and if not, if it might explain what's going on...in large part. All I know is it's bracketed, so it shouldn't move if that's the default, but I'll look at it a bit more closely tomorrow after class. The down side with respect to the '96 EPC...cost. That thing is right at $200. Looks like one can get an entire reman valve body with all 6 solenoids for around $150 from 800700tran.com (recommended to somebody else on an Explorer forum somewhere). I saw similar deals on eBay also. I'd just have to learn what it takes to replace the valve body if it comes to that.
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  #19  
Old 06-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Fordzilla80 Fordzilla80 is offline
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Default Re: PLEASE! Need help ASAP...

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Originally Posted by fletcher969 View Post
Ok...I'll accept your explanation of those discs. Makes perfect sense given what I observed on that flange (marks that mirrored the size and shape of those discs)! When you described those discs, and said they indicate the "original trans pan gasket"....would the presence of those discs be indicative of a tranny pan that's never been dropped?

I checked the harness for obvious signs of damage, etc., and saw nothing, but I'll look more closely in/around the #3. I wasn't really focusing in that area specifically as I had it in my head the #3 was on the other side for whatever reason.

By metal flake, I meant more like metal "dust" like one would see in metal-flake car paints. I'll look more closely tomorrow. Perhaps it's just dirt/crap, and not metal, or the magnet was so covered with "sludge" that it wasn't picking things out of the fluid. As for the magnet...it works. It's not very strong though.

I edited my original post after you "grabbed" my message for reply, but in the interim, I indicated that I had found a diagram that shows the #3 solenoid...which I assume is the same solenoid indicated by the P0761 DTC "Solenoid C." In any event, it's on the other side from where the four are located, near the corner (front). The one I can move appears to be the EPC...the very one you mentioned might be worthy of consideration, and which I said had been lurking in the back of my mind from things I had read. I'm rather curious to know if that thing is supposed to move at all, and if not, if it might explain what's going on...in large part. All I know is it's bracketed, so it shouldn't move if that's the default, but I'll look at it a bit more closely tomorrow after class. The down side with respect to the '96 EPC...cost. That thing is right at $200. Looks like one can get an entire reman valve body with all 6 solenoids for around $150 from 800700tran.com (recommended to somebody else on an Explorer forum somewhere). I saw similar deals on eBay also. I'd just have to learn what it takes to replace the valve body if it comes to that.
I apologize for my posts here when I said I would post my answers elsewhere. I'm feeling lazy these days so i'm just gonna answer them here since this is my favorite forum.

Part of me would like to say yes, there is a good possibility your fluid has never been changed. However, it is recommended to keep the factory filter as long as possible, because those discs are very effective in keeping you from crushing the gasket and tearing it. So it is hard to say.

Definitely check the wiring connections on solenoid C. Sometimes you have to look at things a few times before you can see faults, especially if the wires are still covered in trans fluid.

There should still be no dust or foreign contaminants in your fluid. The only thing you should find in your fluid is the fluid itself, and if the magnet is clogged, trans wear flakes. It sounds like you either have foreign contaminants inside your transmission, or your magent is filled with particles and needs to be cleaned. The magnet isn't supposed to be super strong, but strong enough to pull the shavings from the fluid and keep itself in place on the pan.

As for the EPC solenoid, it should not be moving. If I recall correctly, there may have been a technical service bulletin on the solenoid support bracket. There are weak points in it due to the material the bracket is made out of. This very well may be at least part of your problem. The bracket may not be properly keeping your EPC in place, which could be adversely affecting the function of the EPC, but in which manner I am not sure. What troubles me is there is still a code for the C solenoid yet no code for the EPC solenoid. You will still need to address the C solenoid as well. Your best bet is to wait until you can ohm these solenoids out.
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  #20  
Old 06-18-2011, 06:25 PM
fletcher969 fletcher969 is offline
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Default Re: PLEASE! Need help ASAP...

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Originally Posted by Fordzilla80 View Post
I apologize for my posts here when I said I would post my answers elsewhere. I'm feeling lazy these days so i'm just gonna answer them here since this is my favorite forum.

Part of me would like to say yes, there is a good possibility your fluid has never been changed. However, it is recommended to keep the factory filter as long as possible, because those discs are very effective in keeping you from crushing the gasket and tearing it. So it is hard to say.

Definitely check the wiring connections on solenoid C. Sometimes you have to look at things a few times before you can see faults, especially if the wires are still covered in trans fluid.

There should still be no dust or foreign contaminants in your fluid. The only thing you should find in your fluid is the fluid itself, and if the magnet is clogged, trans wear flakes. It sounds like you either have foreign contaminants inside your transmission, or your magent is filled with particles and needs to be cleaned. The magnet isn't supposed to be super strong, but strong enough to pull the shavings from the fluid and keep itself in place on the pan.

As for the EPC solenoid, it should not be moving. If I recall correctly, there may have been a technical service bulletin on the solenoid support bracket. There are weak points in it due to the material the bracket is made out of. This very well may be at least part of your problem. The bracket may not be properly keeping your EPC in place, which could be adversely affecting the function of the EPC, but in which manner I am not sure. What troubles me is there is still a code for the C solenoid yet no code for the EPC solenoid. You will still need to address the C solenoid as well. Your best bet is to wait until you can ohm these solenoids out.
Ok...from what I can see with a magnifying glass on it, the wiring and connector look good going to the C solenoid. I pulled the solenoid to do an external inspection (it looks ok), and I decided to blow into the internal end of it. Air came out from a little hole in between the two contacts. Not sure if that's normal or not, but if not, that might be a fail point. Also noted that a piston in the valve body "popped" the solenoid out when I was pulling it out just in case that's worth noting. It took a pretty good pull to get it started out though.

With respect to the magnet...it was pretty glommed up with material, so it's possible it wasn't able to pick much more out of the fluid. It's cleaned, and ready to go another round though.

It's the bracket that's allowing the EPC to partially rotate. I took the bracket off, and I was able to spin it 360 degrees. When I put the bracket back in place...same 5-10 degrees of rotation as before. Whether or not that makes a difference, I don't know. The only things I noted about the EPC that might....might not work properly if misaligned to "tdc" so-to-speak, were the way the different "green" areas were designed (with some "alignment" in mind), the flat groove nearer the contacts end (where the bracket is supposed to catch?), and the 4 pin holes also nearer to the contacts end of the solenoid that look like they could be designed to channel small amounts of fluid.

Anyway, that's what I've got right now. Is there a place where a guy should go to get an updated bracket that's supposed to fix a loose EPC? It looks like I need one at the very least.

Dave
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  #21  
Old 06-18-2011, 06:36 PM
Fordzilla80 Fordzilla80 is offline
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Default Re: PLEASE! Need help ASAP...

I know for sure Ford carries an updated bracket that is supposed to eliminate the fail points. However I am unsure of the price, but you can expect it to cost a pretty penny. You may be able to search online for a transmission parts house, but i'm always weary of internet companies selling stuff for cheap.
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:48 PM
fletcher969 fletcher969 is offline
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Default Re: PLEASE! Need help ASAP...

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I know for sure Ford carries an updated bracket that is supposed to eliminate the fail points. However I am unsure of the price, but you can expect it to cost a pretty penny. You may be able to search online for a transmission parts house, but i'm always weary of internet companies selling stuff for cheap.
I just read another thread wherein they described the updated/improved bracket having 3 bolt attachments, while the original had only one. Mine has 3. Perhaps it was updated already... In any event, I can see no signs of damage or wear on the bracket. Looks good as new actually. As for how it would even begin to hold the solenoid tight from rotational movement....I don't see how it could. There is a smallish groove in the solenoid that I think a tab on the bracket fits into, but its very design would allow rotational movement. I don't know... I'd like to see a good close up picture of the bracket holding the EPC in place...

Do you know if air should come out between the contacts on the C solenoid, or know where I might inquire about it?
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Last edited by fletcher969; 06-18-2011 at 06:51 PM.
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  #23  
Old 06-18-2011, 07:18 PM
Fordzilla80 Fordzilla80 is offline
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I just read another thread wherein they described the updated/improved bracket having 3 bolt attachments, while the original had only one. Mine has 3. Perhaps it was updated already... In any event, I can see no signs of damage or wear on the bracket. Looks good as new actually. As for how it would even begin to hold the solenoid tight from rotational movement....I don't see how it could. There is a smallish groove in the solenoid that I think a tab on the bracket fits into, but its very design would allow rotational movement. I don't know... I'd like to see a good close up picture of the bracket holding the EPC in place...

Do you know if air should come out between the contacts on the C solenoid, or know where I might inquire about it?
Hmmm, i'm not too sure on the bracket, as i've never studied one close up to see how exactly it holds the EPC solenoid.

As for the air coming through the contacts, i'm not understanding what you mean by that. Are you talking about the electrical contacts?
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  #24  
Old 06-18-2011, 07:55 PM
fletcher969 fletcher969 is offline
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Hmmm, i'm not too sure on the bracket, as i've never studied one close up to see how exactly it holds the EPC solenoid.

As for the air coming through the contacts, i'm not understanding what you mean by that. Are you talking about the electrical contacts?
Picture if you will...I putting the internal end of the C solenoid into my mouth, and blowing. Air passes through the solenoid, and comes out of a hole that's located behind the two contacts (i.e. on the outside of the solenoid where the contacts are...there's a hole that looks manufactured). In essence, air goes into one end, and comes out the other end by the contacts. Oh...duh...I should learn to read! Yes, the electrical contacts where the connector plug into the solenoid...there's a hole between them...air passes through there when I blow on the other (internal) end...

As for the bracket...I modified it every so slightly, and the EPC now fits snug as a bug.
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Last edited by fletcher969; 06-18-2011 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 06-18-2011, 08:25 PM
Fordzilla80 Fordzilla80 is offline
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Picture if you will...I putting the internal end of the C solenoid into my mouth, and blowing. Air passes through the solenoid, and comes out of a hole that's located behind the two contacts (i.e. on the outside of the solenoid where the contacts are...there's a hole that looks manufactured). In essence, air goes into one end, and comes out the other end by the contacts. Oh...duh...I should learn to read! Yes, the electrical contacts where the connector plug into the solenoid...there's a hole between them...air passes through there when I blow on the other (internal) end...

As for the bracket...I modified it every so slightly, and the EPC now fits snug as a bug.
Ahh I see what you're talking about now. That hole you're talking about seem to me like a fluid passage of some sort.

As for the bracket, glad you found a way to get the EPC snug. Care to elaborate on your small modification?
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Old 06-18-2011, 08:36 PM
fletcher969 fletcher969 is offline
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Ahh I see what you're talking about now. That hole you're talking about seem to me like a fluid passage of some sort.

As for the bracket, glad you found a way to get the EPC snug. Care to elaborate on your small modification?
For confirmation, I bolted the bracket back in place first without modification, and the solenoid rotated 5-10 degrees as before. I thought about it, and decided to see if I could hold the solenoid in place by applying pressure on the bracket at the point where it latched into the solenoid. That stopped the rotation, so I bent (arched) the bracket where it meets the solenoid, tightened it down, and it's holding. At least for now, but I think it will hold indefinitely.
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Old 06-18-2011, 08:45 PM
Fordzilla80 Fordzilla80 is offline
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For confirmation, I bolted the bracket back in place first without modification, and the solenoid rotated 5-10 degrees as before. I thought about it, and decided to see if I could hold the solenoid in place by applying pressure on the bracket at the point where it latched into the solenoid. That stopped the rotation, so I bent (arched) the bracket where it meets the solenoid, tightened it down, and it's holding. At least for now, but I think it will hold indefinitely.
Good to know. Hopefully it does hold. What's next on your list?
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Old 06-18-2011, 08:48 PM
fletcher969 fletcher969 is offline
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Well...being that I don't have access to a multimeter, and I didn't see anything obvious with respect to the C solenoid or wiring, and because I have to get my truck to the shop Monday morning to have a leaf shackle and bracket replaced (yes, one broke completely off on Friday while I was limping back home from work...when it rains, it pours...), I think I'll put the filter back on, bolt the pan in place, fill it up, and see what I have. Perhaps snugging the EPC will provide at least some improvement...along with the new filter and fluid. If it needs work afterwards, at least I'll have eliminated the filter, fluid, and a loose EPC!

Dave
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:43 AM
sleeperrx7 sleeperrx7 is offline
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Default Re: PLEASE! Need help ASAP...

Flush out your tranny cooler lines as well. If that was the first time your tranny pan was dropped I guarantee new fluid will scrub and break away any other buildup and send it through the valve body and give you even more headaches. They make really good tranny cooler flush sprays available at the local parts stores. Looks like its in a brake clean bottle with a clear plastic hose. Disconnect both cooler lines at the tranny and send it through, you will not believe what comes out the other end. Just a friendly warning
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:22 AM
fletcher969 fletcher969 is offline
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Good to know. Hopefully it does hold. What's next on your list?
Hey Shaun...I want to thank you for your input up to this point. While I hope there won't be any more reason for you to respond to this issue specifically, it always nice to have somebody's perspective who's been down the same or a similar road before to smooth out the bumps, answer questions, and address concerns.

Again, much appreciated.

Dave

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Originally Posted by sleeperrx7 View Post
Flush out your tranny cooler lines as well. If that was the first time your tranny pan was dropped I guarantee new fluid will scrub and break away any other buildup and send it through the valve body and give you even more headaches. They make really good tranny cooler flush sprays available at the local parts stores. Looks like its in a brake clean bottle with a clear plastic hose. Disconnect both cooler lines at the tranny and send it through, you will not believe what comes out the other end. Just a friendly warning
Thanks for the advice. I'm going with a regular pan-drop fluid replacement this time around until I know the tranny is even going to run properly. If it does, I'll run it a couple of weeks, then drop the pan, replace the filter again, and flush it. Anecdotal or not, I've heard far too many stories of people flushing their trannys after long spells of not, and having major issues. Of course I already have major issues (hopefully resolved), but I think I'll avoid one potential issue on top of another until I have this problem figured out. Thanks again.
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