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  #1  
Old 06-13-2011, 11:49 AM
Rangerlove Rangerlove is offline
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Default Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

Got a '91, 2.3 SOHC, EFI, 2WD, Manual. No A/C.

I have this really weird problem, like the title states.
My thottle body is always full of oil, fresh oil, and over time it will completely clog up (I have to put in at least a couple of quarts a week.)
I had a cracked head and two bad valves, so I went to replace those, because, yeah, that'll cause oil to burn off. I noticed as I took the throttle body off...it was clogged with old oil and had barely a quarter-sized hole to draw air through. I cleaned it liberally, despite explicit instructions stamped onto it that said not to.

Replaced the PCV valve, because that was filled with oil, too. Then I noticed it drank 3 more quarts in a week, and it's smoking bad, but isn't using water. The smoke's blue, so you know that's oil. My thought is somehow the PCV valve is drawing up oil and putting it into the intake part of the clamshell because that's where it routes. But as for how it's filling up my throttle body, I haven't the foggiest. The PCV valve has vacuum on it, and after it draws up oil, it clogs the valve shut. As to how it's spewing up oil past the clogged valve, I also haven't the foggiest.

My thought is that weird, black, lumpy "thing" that the PCV valve line connects to isn't doing it's job. But I'm not sure what that job is. I couldn't figure out how to get it off when I was rebuilding the motor. I went to junkyards and they had ones that just came off with a single bolt. Mine doesn't have it, however, or I'd be peering in there with a flashlight seeing what the situation is.

Anyone have any ideas? My vacuum lines, the only one that connects to anything kinda dirty is a charcoal canister. One of them connects to my EGR valve, and I suppose it's possible, now that I think about it, that it's somehow sucking oil and putting it in the throttle body through the EGR port, but that seems unlikely. The air bypass to the valve cover is clean. The gang valve and vacuum lines are clean. The only things that seem to have oil in them are the PCV valve and the throttle body/intake manifold. The PCV line doesn't even have oil in it.

Any help would be appreciated.

Anyone have this problem before? Anyone got any theories to posit? I've never even heard of anything like this before.
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'91 Ranger, 2.3L 4-Banger knocking out 140 HP. Plopped the head out of '94 and an RV cam in it. 2WD, zero options. But, I love her to death.
Avatar is when I drove up the Bohemia mining saddle in Oregon, a fairly well-known 4WD trail around here.
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  #2  
Old 06-13-2011, 11:54 AM
brinker88 brinker88 is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/pcv-replace/
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2011, 05:17 AM
Rangerlove Rangerlove is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

Oh, I've replaced the PCV Valve and lines twice now just to be sure. I even tried a valve from a more vacuum-heavy truck.

I found another line that looks like it needs a check valve, and it doesn't seem to do anything. The Hayne's and Chilton's books I have don't show it on any diagrams and if you blow into it the motor dies. I plugged off both sides of that and I'm going to see if it quits sucking down oil.
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'91 Ranger, 2.3L 4-Banger knocking out 140 HP. Plopped the head out of '94 and an RV cam in it. 2WD, zero options. But, I love her to death.
Avatar is when I drove up the Bohemia mining saddle in Oregon, a fairly well-known 4WD trail around here.
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  #4  
Old 06-14-2011, 07:25 AM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

3 quarts a week?!? Are you sure there are no external leaks? There isn't by chance a mysterious oil slick under your truck?

Blocking off or disconnecting the PCV system is definitely not the solution here. It does have a rather important purpose. To fully understand whats going on, lets first remind ourselves the purpose of the PCV system and its two ends.

Venting the crankcase removes water vapor created by heating and cooling, and removes combustion chamber gasses that blow-by the piston rings, which is normal. If the crankcase was sealed off, that vapor will never be removed and that blowby pressure will build up and eventually make its own path out.

There will be a hose going from the air intake tube or airbox into engine somewhere (not sure where on a 2.3), but it will be on the right side somewhere probably since that is where the airbox is. There no valves, just directly connected to the engine. This is where fresh air goes INTO the crankcase. Then on the other side of the engine there will be the PCV valve with a hose going to the intake manifold. Manifold vacuum applies suction to this line so this is where the contaminated air leaves the crankcase. The valve regulates how much vacuum suction is applied to it. It is inverse to the amount of vacuum present. At low RPM, vacuum is strongest and the valve closes proportional to lower the suction (it would be too much without it). At higher RPM, vacuum is weakest so the valve opens all the way to compensate.

IF the PCV's suck end is clogged or blocked, that crankcase pressure from blowby will just backflow out the fresh air side into the air intake hose or airbox (wherever it connects). That will cause it to contaminate your throttle body since it is well before it. It also means that intake hose is probably full of shit too. But this shouldn't be doing it to that extreme extent. We're taking about dirty air here, not a Kuwaiti oil well.

Now, if you are literally sucking up quarts of oil, something is seriously wrong. This system is designed to ventilate AIR, which may contain some oil vapor and the occasional splash. It is not in any liquid oil reservoir. If you have liquid oil blowing into your intake hose, I think you might have some very fucked up piston rings or gaskets allowing excessive combustion pressure to leak into the crankcase. That is blowing oil up the tube. Not good my friend. You've got a Deep Sea Horizon thing going on here.
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Last edited by FireRanger; 06-14-2011 at 12:31 PM.
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  #5  
Old 06-15-2011, 09:13 AM
Rangerlove Rangerlove is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

Well, first off thanks for the awesome post, FireRanger. That cleared a lot of how it works up for me. I knew the general basics: that air went in one side, fumes came out the other. But my Hayne's guide kind of goes about explaining it using a carbureted V-8 as an example and it ends up seeming like witchcraft. The Chilton's guide I have uses the same pictures/explanation.

That sounds like my problem exactly. The PCV valve clogs up and then the other side of the system with the tube coming out of the valve cover spits oil into the throttle body by backpressure.

So, let me preface the next part of this by saying I'm an auto tech. student at a local community college and I do learn a lot, especially in the realm of troubleshooting and theory. But most of what I have learned has just been back-yard mechanicin'. It's entirely possible I didn't do something right with my engine rebuild.

My little 2.3L was running like crap and getting worse for the past year or so. The valve clatter was embarrassing and got so loud you could hear it over the stereo. At one point a coil pack stopped firing one side of a cylinder and it wasn't firing on all of them all the time. Then the slave cylinder went out. Then the clutch went out. It was problem, after problem, after problem, and finally, I had the money/time and a loaner car to take the head off, look at everything, and do it right.

So, there were two bent valves, two ruined valve guides, but the head gasket was remarkably nice. It had apparently been replaced in '04. The head had three cracks in it and wasn't reusable. As soon as I saw all that, I was like "Bam, that's where the oil is going! And why it smokes out the back end!" And, you know, valves spewing oil past their guides and seals is a pretty common oil-eating symptom associated with clatter.

I tested the pistons. I filled up each cylinder with WD-40, #1 and 4 remarkably held the WD-40 for like 30 minutes or something. Two and three held it for at least 20, and when I called the guy who was machining my head and such, he said not to even worry about the bottom end, because WD-40 is, you know, pretty slippery, snakey stuff and those are good times to hold it up.

I did a compression check last week when it started all this malarkey of smoking and eating oil again.

#1 and 4 had 165 PSI, and #2 and 3 had 155. I'm told the bottom amount is about 150 PSI, and you can make due down to like 145 PSI, but anything below that and you should rebuild. I've also been told that 160-170 is normal for the little 2.3Ls.

Oh, and there's no oil or ash buildup on my plugs. They're all tannish-white which my book says is normal use.

I mean, I'm obviously not the professional here with zounds of experience and I haven't the foggiest what the deal is.

----------

Oh, and no external leaks. I steam-cleaned the engine bay while I was at it, and there isn't a drop of fresh or old oil as far as I can see. I park it in the same spot in my driveway everyday. No drips!

I went for a four-hour drive with a girl the other day, and when I got back I was more than a quart low. I took off the breather tube and the throttle body was lined in fresh oil.

When I took the engine apart, there was enough dried up, nasty old oil in the throttle body, that air was hardly going through it. It had a quarter-to silver-dollar sized hole for the air to go into the intake through. The TPS, EGR, and Temp. ports were completely filled in with oil.
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'91 Ranger, 2.3L 4-Banger knocking out 140 HP. Plopped the head out of '94 and an RV cam in it. 2WD, zero options. But, I love her to death.
Avatar is when I drove up the Bohemia mining saddle in Oregon, a fairly well-known 4WD trail around here.
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  #6  
Old 06-15-2011, 11:04 AM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

Something is creating a lot of pressure in your crankcase man. You lost a whole quart of oil in 4 hours, through the breather tube, which is at the top of the engine, in complete defiance of GRAVITY. I'm sure the PCV valve on the out side is being fouled up for the same reason.

I'm out of ideas on this one. Nothing makes sense here.
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  #7  
Old 06-15-2011, 10:18 PM
Rangerlove Rangerlove is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

Well, on my truck there's this weird black radiator-looking deal that has a tube that connects to the PCV valve. And I think that's the culprit. I dumped a thing of Seafoam down there and let it sit for about six hours, then took it for a 20 mile spin. It felt better all around, but that might be either psychosomatic or because Seamfoam is good stuff on everything.

I'm going to see how much oil it ate, and if none, then that might have been it.

My theory was the black radiator thing was an oil trap and it had just become so gummed up in the last 20 years that it wasn't venting right and, and when it did vent, it was through such a small hole that it would push oil through with force, clogging up the PCV valve, thus creating the back-pressure.

That's my theory anyway. If this doesn't fix it, I'm ripping that thing, whatever it is, out and having my way with it. If I have to get a new one, so be it.

I really appreciate your time, FireRanger. I love learning new stuff.
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'91 Ranger, 2.3L 4-Banger knocking out 140 HP. Plopped the head out of '94 and an RV cam in it. 2WD, zero options. But, I love her to death.
Avatar is when I drove up the Bohemia mining saddle in Oregon, a fairly well-known 4WD trail around here.
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  #8  
Old 06-16-2011, 05:39 AM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

A clogged component on either end of the PCV system would be forcing quarts upon quarts of oil up the other end. I'd be surprised if that fixes it.
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How to: Aux light wiring, relays, & fuses
Info: 300+ intake threads here on FRF
Info: HID Projectors
How To: NO HEAT Troubleshooting Guide
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2011, 08:11 AM
Rangerlove Rangerlove is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

Well, oddly enough, it hasn't eaten any oil since my last post and the throttle body is dry as a bone inside! I've driven about 200 miles since then. Most likely this is just a temporary fix, but the Seafoam unclogged somethin' down in there...or did something...because that was the only change I made. Yesterday I figured out where I had a vacuum leak and why I had a spare line going nowhere, lol, that made it run even better.

Now if only I could figure out why it's blasting plumes of smoke out the back, but it isn't eating any oil or using any water...it's just...smoking...and it smells rich.

I can hear it drop a cylinder very intermittently. Think it might be time for new coil packs? I tried to test them with my multi-meter as some guides I found showed, but I think my meter might be crap because it said every port on both coils were dead, lol.

I might try that vacuum line trick, where you use a 12V light tester and see how it sparks, if the sun ever comes out...first day of summer in Oregon and it's clouded over, windy, and looks like rain...
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'91 Ranger, 2.3L 4-Banger knocking out 140 HP. Plopped the head out of '94 and an RV cam in it. 2WD, zero options. But, I love her to death.
Avatar is when I drove up the Bohemia mining saddle in Oregon, a fairly well-known 4WD trail around here.
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2011, 08:22 AM
ackyle12 ackyle12 is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

I had that issue as well, oil was ending up in my air box and leaking onto the ground. I lost a lot of oil. I ended up going to a shop that i thought did decent work. They said i needed a new engine, re****ulas!! Ended up being a valve behind the drivers side engine head that needed to be replaced. Its a $10 part and i havent had the problem sence. I guess your suppose to replace it on every 30,000 miles, but i didnt even know about it till now. Good luck man!
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:01 AM
FireRanger FireRanger is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

See if the smoke goes away on its own. It may just be residual oil in the intake, cylinders, and exhaust that will go away eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ackyle12 View Post
Ended up being a valve behind the drivers side engine head that needed to be replaced. Its a $10 part and i havent had the problem sence. I guess your suppose to replace it on every 30,000 miles, but i didnt even know about it till now. Good luck man!
That would be the PCV valve we've been discussing
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How to: Aux light wiring, relays, & fuses
Info: 300+ intake threads here on FRF
Info: HID Projectors
How To: NO HEAT Troubleshooting Guide

Last edited by FireRanger; 06-21-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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  #12  
Old 06-22-2011, 01:29 AM
Rangerlove Rangerlove is offline
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Default Re: Sucking oil into the PCV valve and it ends up in throttle body?

Well, aside from the trip to the mechanic! Sounds like you got off easy! I replaced my valve twice, but it didn't change anything.
I think my oil trap was clogged, because Seafoam stopped it. It's just going to start happening again, though. Might try diesel next time and do a full oil flush.
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'91 Ranger, 2.3L 4-Banger knocking out 140 HP. Plopped the head out of '94 and an RV cam in it. 2WD, zero options. But, I love her to death.
Avatar is when I drove up the Bohemia mining saddle in Oregon, a fairly well-known 4WD trail around here.
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intake manifold, oil, pcv, throttle body

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